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subs don't need "training", Doms do.

OlsUSNavy{None}
6 years ago • Sep 5, 2017
OlsUSNavy{None} • Sep 5, 2017
I've enjoyed reading this topic. It has spanned many aspects of my life experience.

The first thing a D needs to know are their own physical and mental limits. An (s) should feel free to state their limits before, during and after a session. All parties share the responsibility for physical and mental safety. An (s) has to be treated as a human being. A D should listen to that little voice that tells them that they are about to go beyond the humane. Something that is learned as a relationship progresses.

Some have compared our relationships with the military. I for one was a career Submarine Sailor. I 'only ' attained the rank of E-6. I also wielded considerable authority and shouldered immense responsibility. Few have had the responsibility to ensure the safety and security of nuclear weapons. The task requires patience, knowledge and extreme violence. Each person in the organization is required to teach and mentor any others, yet able to turn to extreme aggression at a moments notice. I grew tired of the violence as I approached retirement. I was also far more cruel as I grew professionally. This was a natural progression. This also allowed me to differentiate between real life and training. Because of my experience, I prefer to mentor before and during discipline. Mentoring has its own rewards.

We are all responsible to make life better for each other. Our chosen path just used a different regimen. After all, we are intelligent enough to have chosen this lifestyle.
FabSeverus​(dom male)
6 years ago • Sep 6, 2017
FabSeverus​(dom male) • Sep 6, 2017
I might object to 2 point SilverDevil729.
1/ we are not like military, soldiers obey to a superior rank because its a rule> A sub obey to her Sir because she chose to.
2/ unfortunately after 50 shades of grey a lots of "Dom" jump on the ride because it was fashionable and sexy to be into bdsm, and some are just abusers and dont have the philopsophy to be a real Dom. Not sure if they even know the name of the different parts of human body.
I was talking with a young sub online, she was 19 and she experience choking at the age of 16! When I ask if it was done by a mature Master she said it was a 20 years Dom!!
This is whats worry the most, young pretending Master going around doing some dangerous experiments.
OlsUSNavy{None}
6 years ago • Sep 6, 2017
OlsUSNavy{None} • Sep 6, 2017
I would have to respectfully disagree with your belief that military personnel are somehow inured to obey. As with any other concept or belief, all of us have a basic drive to our concept of leadership. What seems like blind obedience to orders is just a popular assumption. The facts are, we know the difference between a lawful order and will attempt to reconcile that order to our beliefs. Frequently, people disagree with those orders. You will never hear about them, because they are exercising the most basic human right.

We all have to look at our beliefs. We hold those beliefs up on high. We compare our orders to our personal values. Blindly following orders is the excuse that Nazi's used at the end of WWII.

There is another relationship that bears out my concepts. I mean no insult, but some may object to my analogies.

My X wife has an adult female Yorkshire Terrier, she is 14 oz.

Her name is Desiree. She is fierce in her concept of what is valuable to her. It doesn't matter to her as to whom owns her. She has selected her master. When she sees me, I'm the only entity that she acknowledges. I've disciplined her, expect much more from her and am the quickest to forgive her. She watches my behavior and reacts based on her mental state.

Again, I'm not belittling anyone. This is an example that I live with.
ShadesOfRedSir​(dom male)
6 years ago • Dec 9, 2017
ShadesOfRedSir​(dom male) • Dec 9, 2017
I enjoyed reading this as it provoked many thoughts I've had in my journey in the bdsm world. Its definitely a learning process that mistakes get made in. Unfortunately the consequences of those mistakes get put on to another and can inevitably cause some real damage. I would definitely encourage anyone new or even in the lifestyle for years to seek out a mentor or a friend to discuss and gain a different perspective on the lifestyle. Another's point of view can be invaluable in bettering yourself for your dynamic.
Taramafor​(sub male)
6 years ago • Dec 9, 2017
Taramafor​(sub male) • Dec 9, 2017
I argue that it's both. And that the two can only teach each other. As in the specific company that is together.

I have had to "teach" a dom a fair bit. And they did indeed get better at handling me. And I mean "me". As in "Here's how I need to be handled. not other sub here". So there is some truth to the title of the thread.

However, a dom also needs to enjoy their time with the sub. A good dom or sub will do the things for each other to make them happy. This will include "How to handle each other". One might need a gentle approach yet the other might need a harsher one. it is quite possible for the two to co-exist. A sub needs to let a dom know how to handle them. But a dom also needs to to get the sub to look after them. An example on the subs side would be "If you want to stick me in that tutu you better be willing to get harsh with me". Yet what if a sub is a "roll over" and the dom wants them with a bit more backbone? People really can struggle with that, and not just D/s wise but genially too. Likewise there might be "too much" backbone where it's gotten to talking back, in which case harsher treatment might be in order. And that of course comes down to the dom. Sometimes the sub might need to let a dom know how to do that but it can easily be a case of a dom teaching the sub when they get punished for something and for what.

The only thing I've really had to teach is that being harsh with me isn't a "harmful" thing to do with me. That it's even wanted and enjoyed. Beyond that I leave out a rough guideline and let a dom find their own way. Until they're the ones teaching me. A dom "can" need instructing at first. "Look after me in these ways that I need". But they can also end up being the teachers themselves. Looking after you in ways you didn't even know you needed.

In the end both need to teach each other I think. Some lessons you know about. Others you learned without even realising.
LordofPain56
6 years ago • Dec 18, 2017
LordofPain56 • Dec 18, 2017
This has been very interesting reading.
I disagree with the statement that "there is no such thing as a natural Dom". There are people who are born with dominant characteristics
Dominants inherently have; leadership qualities, good teaching and guiding abilities, excellent knowledge of themselves (good characteristics and shortcomings) exceptional self-control.
Variances in ones Dominant structure include other characteristics like: having a keen eye for detail, awareness (attentiveness), compassion, understanding, patience and many more things. Patience can be learned with great difficulty, but a lot of those other things are inherent. You have 'em or you don't.
Better Dominants in addition to the inherent qualities have learned abilities such as good moral values (know the difference between right and wrong) and good ethics (socially and in the business world). You could take that a step further by adding an education in psychology and other things as well.
I personally would never consider any dom-to-dom mentoring. Instead, my preference is to first divulge a list of my characteristics to a prospective partner which includes descriptions of how I would interact with her, how much freedom/control she could expect from me and generally what life would be like day-to-day. I would also include a list of my kinks. She would be encouraged to make a list of questions from those lists which I would happily fully and honestly answer. I would also prefer something similar from her, orally if she wanted. Any concerns in either list could then be negotiated (if possible) and any deal-breakers would be discovered (which would terminate the prospect altogether). I know this sounds mechanical and unemotional, but it certainly is less time consuming and there is less of a chance that a relationship would end in failure as long as both parties were honest in the beginning.
Now I know, girls like to get their surprises gradually over time. They like to spread their "discoveries" out. But what if a relationship has ensued and they suddenly get a BAD surprise. Now there is crying and heartache and failure. Would information overload at the beginning have been worse ???
Suppose you got all the Dom training you could get. The next girl you see, might just not be that into you anyway (bad vibes). Who knows? And then there's "chemistry". How ya gonna train for that ?
Anyway, I say that there are definitely natural born Dom's and then there are those who could be better with the addition of a formal education based solely upon fact and without biased opinion in a few helpful subjects of study.
evergrey​(sub female){Ashigeru}
6 years ago • Dec 18, 2017
Oh yes, Kalina! Excellent post!

A few things- I have had a few messages from dudes on here asking "are you trained?" LOL. I've been in the lifestyle 23 years and the longer I'm in it, the less this question actually makes SENSE. Preferences and protocols are learned over time and are very specific to each individual D/s relationship. There's no catch-all general "traning." That's the stuff of fantasy novels. It's not a part of modern normal BDSM lifestyle communities.

Usually I answer with, "yes! I'm a brown belt in Kyokushin, and have been training for about 8 years now. I often end up teaching these days, in fact." It's fun to watch them struggle when I am facetious like this, and then ask them what on earth they are talking about when they say "no I mean as a sub."

Also- as an equestrian who is trained in horsemanship (heh heh) I don't even see "breaking" horses as ideal or good. Teaching, leading, forming a working partnership, that's so much better with them, too! Establish leadership, teach them that they can trust and rely on you, and that while they need to follow your lead, they are allowed to think and feel, also, and you have yourself a great working horse. They aren't machines and they will give you EVERYTHING when they feel secure and considered. Kind of like a sub, lol! Partnerships built on trust are best, even with animals.

Another thing- while it's awesome and essential for partners to learn each other naturally, I also don't want to be the one to "train" my dom. If I take a leading, guiding, teaching role, I can't feel submissive to them. 😕 So, while I will clearly communicate preferences, where I am at, what works well with me, etc, I need them to learn HOW to be a dom elsewhere. Learn it from books, from mentors, classes, etc. But not me.
Taramafor​(sub male)
6 years ago • Dec 24, 2017
Taramafor​(sub male) • Dec 24, 2017
LordofPain56 wrote:
This has been very interesting reading.
I disagree with the statement that "there is no such thing as a natural Dom". There are people who are born with dominant characteristics
Dominants inherently have; leadership qualities, good teaching and guiding abilities, excellent knowledge of themselves (good characteristics and shortcomings) exceptional self-control.
Variances in ones Dominant structure include other characteristics like: having a keen eye for detail, awareness (attentiveness), compassion, understanding, patience and many more things. Patience can be learned with great difficulty, but a lot of those other things are inherent. You have 'em or you don't.
Better Dominants in addition to the inherent qualities have learned abilities such as good moral values (know the difference between right and wrong) and good ethics (socially and in the business world). You could take that a step further by adding an education in psychology and other things as well.
I personally would never consider any dom-to-dom mentoring. Instead, my preference is to first divulge a list of my characteristics to a prospective partner which includes descriptions of how I would interact with her, how much freedom/control she could expect from me and generally what life would be like day-to-day. I would also include a list of my kinks. She would be encouraged to make a list of questions from those lists which I would happily fully and honestly answer. I would also prefer something similar from her, orally if she wanted. Any concerns in either list could then be negotiated (if possible) and any deal-breakers would be discovered (which would terminate the prospect altogether). I know this sounds mechanical and unemotional, but it certainly is less time consuming and there is less of a chance that a relationship would end in failure as long as both parties were honest in the beginning.
Now I know, girls like to get their surprises gradually over time. They like to spread their "discoveries" out. But what if a relationship has ensued and they suddenly get a BAD surprise. Now there is crying and heartache and failure. Would information overload at the beginning have been worse ???
Suppose you got all the Dom training you could get. The next girl you see, might just not be that into you anyway (bad vibes). Who knows? And then there's "chemistry". How ya gonna train for that ?
Anyway, I say that there are definitely natural born Dom's and then there are those who could be better with the addition of a formal education based solely upon fact and without biased opinion in a few helpful subjects of study.


The only part I disagree with is "born". I don't believe we're born as we are. Instead we grow up in an environment and events happen in our life and our personalities "appear" (for lack of a better term). And these aren't set in stone. Who are are right now may well be very different from how we used to be. I know I am. If someone lacks confidence then they can do something about that if they put their mind to it. Or even if events happen out of their control to have them adapt. This can go for good or ill when it's down to "fate" (normally ill in my experience. Taking action tends to be a good counter). Bad things can happen to drain such confidence. Which can happen growing up as much as randomly outside our homes.

The trademark of a good dom tends to be confidence. And this sounds easy at first glance. "Get more confidence". It's getting that confidence that isn't so easy, however. It also tends to come with thinking logically. To overrule emotions. These are qualities that can be sadly lacking for many. Qualities even I lacked in the past. Basically I'm saying people change. With and without intent. Knowing and unknowing. People might pretend otherwise but that's how it goes. Events happen to change our perceptions on things. Sometimes the "perception" is strictly between X and Y, yet might be different with Z. That's getting more into things though. Suffice to say "personality" adapts depending on the company. What you do might be more or less enjoyable even if it's the same thing because of that. Knowing the how and why of things with close company tends to make things more enjoyable too. Knowing what it means to each other. What's bad for Z might be good for Y.

Now a sub can have those qualities too (confidence and logic), but a sub can also not have them just as easily. In fact it might even be more likely for a sub to lack confidence. That is not to say lacking confidence makes someone a sub of course. I'm quite confident myself after all. It simply means one is more likely to be a sub then a dom if confidence is lacking. While it can also take confidence to get on your knees or what have you, it is simply more of a challenge to lead then to follow. Unless you're used to calling the shots. Grow up learning karate and people will take you more seriously and not push you around. Hard times can cause one to "toughen up". To gain such confidence or pay the price. or worse, have others do that in your stead. On the other hand grow up in a house with an abusive mother that runs you out of the house when you have cancer with getting rapped adding insult to injury and I'm be surprised if anyone pops out as a dom after those events.

The more emotional people also tend to be subs. Little known saying of subs going out of their way for their doms (or maybe widely known in BDSM circles). There's pros and cons to both sides. I find it's ideal to find a balance.

A sub can also "get away" with being more emotional and less logical. A dom? Not so much. If emotions get the best of you when you're getting carried away with the torture... You can restrain a sub if they get emotional but not so with a dom. Let alone controlling your hormones if torture turns you on.

The conclusion I have come to is that a dom tends to have certain qualities while a sub can have pretty much any. On the flip side doms and subs can rub off on each other, especially when closer. Which means one can get better at the other just by being around each other. Which might be the appeal for many. To have that "other side" balance you out. regardless of which side of the fence you're on.
Miki
6 years ago • Dec 25, 2017
Miki • Dec 25, 2017
Informative. Thank You!

While I'm not really looking to jump into anything in the near future, when I do discuss the topic of "slave training", I mean it in a different sense. As a sub/masochist (emphasize masochist-- there is a difference compared to "real" subs, as defined in some circles) who has never been owned outside of short term "meet me meat me beat me" -- I'm a Sassy Sub. By "training" I meant, as part of kinky, erotic play that gets me off that I will deliberately do or omit little things to earn those heavenly little punishments in a "training" kind of scenario.

If/when I go the "full time house-sub" route, of course "training" is not required in that I do know I must submit and obey. it's not as if I have to learn how to be a sub. It comes naturally.
soe
soe
6 years ago • Dec 25, 2017

Re: subs don't need "training", Doms do.

soe • Dec 25, 2017
Kalina wrote:
Subs Don't Need "Training" but Doms Do

A few years ago, I was dating a submissive girl who lived at the other end of the state. She was delightful and adorable and apparently really kinky, but our early visits were rocky; she would express ambivalence and occasional antipathy towards me. Despite this, we kept trying to find a groove over the course of eighteen months. Along the way, she expressed an interest in "slave training"—a topic she'd encountered on BDSM forums, and discussed with other subs. I had not given any sort of training to my previous partners; I tend to develop a romance organically, and teach my partner things, about me or about herself, as needed.

Seeing a training project as an avenue to bring us closer together, I proposed that she visit me for a long weekend of specific lessons. I made a list of kink activities to introduce, a lesson plan for each, and a schedule for each day. Over four days, there would be three 90-minute sessions per day, with breaks in between. Topics included behavior basics, emotions management, kissing, oral service, bondage, pain, protocol, and submissive mindset. I even drafted an agreement for us to sign together, defining the framework of the weekend.

The four days of instruction went well, in fact better than any of our previous meetings. She struggled with a few of the lessons, but didn't become grumpy or withdrawn, a pleasant surprise. The final lesson concluded with the two of us in a calm, connected place. But the exercise did not dispel the greater issues between us; they soon resurfaced. I suspect she had wanted an experience that would suddenly demolish her internal barriers to feeling safe and connected to a lover; that would train her to be... herself. My training schedule was not nearly as intense as it could have been, but in retrospect I don't believe that any dom-imposed training regime could have accomplished what she sought. 

In my opinion, all the talk in BDSM circles about "training a submissive" is wrong-headed. No standard training regime is required to be a good submissive partner. (Though many subs I've met could stand a course in how to select a worthy dom! See How to Interview a Dom/Master.) In reality, it is we doms who require the training, and not simply on how to wave a whip safely. 

Doms need training, or knowledge and practice, because we assume the authority in the relationship. The ability to retain and wield authority responsibly, and consistently over time, is not innate—there are no "natural dominants". One must acquire and hone these skills, and doing so can take years. Even accurately perceiving your own words and tone as you speak can be challenging, as is choosing an effective mix of substance and style to convey a specific demand.

Although one can find workshops presented by dominant men or women describing their own experiences with D/s, there are no accredited schools for dominant lovers. Most doms therefore educate themselves, hopefully with some mentoring by other wise doms. But for most of us, we are trained by trial and error within our relationships, causing our subs and ourselves suffering when we err.

For subs, the only skills which all must master are emotional and interpersonal best practices, like clear communication, sound boundaries, managing emotions, awareness of triggers, focus in the present—which aren't specific to kinky relationships. Subs who tend to have a strong psychological subspace response should also learn to handle that (see Two Kinds of Subspace). Whatever other abilities that a particular dom desires his love to obtain can be taught at the appropriate moment as their romance unfolds.

And doms do indeed teach their subs many things, especially how to recognize and fulfill their needs & desires, and also life skills beneficial to their partners. Different doms naturally teach different lessons. But to be an effective teacher, a dom must first learn his sub; her strengths and weaknesses, how she absorbs and embraces new ideas or behaviors. Next, he must adapt his ways of instructing and guiding to her. Teaching is a lot easier if you understand how the pupil thinks and learns!

Having a mentor is the closest that most doms and subs get to actual training. The most productive mentoring relationships are dom-to-dom and sub-to-sub, although the other combinations can also work. Mentoring is largely conversational; it happens over coffee, on the phone, via the Internet. While mentoring may occur within a romance, a relationship formed for the purpose of mentoring should not become sexual, as that creates a conflict of interest for the mentor. A mentor's goal must be the growth and success of his protégé.

Some couples like to use "training" as a kinky label for getting-to-know-you activities or early BDSM sessions. These really aren't training per se, but language is a useful romantic lever, so why not "train her" if that feels hot. In the opening stages of a D/s relationship, both partners are best served by simply learning each other. Fitting any two people together, in kinky relationships as much as vanilla ones, is like doing a jigsaw puzzle; it takes time and some trial and error. A dom may need to accommodate a new sub somewhat to win her trust. Over time, she will of course accommodate him extensively as their trust deepens.

A period of immersion in D/s roles—around the clock for a weekend, a week, or even a month—may be hot and bonding for some couples. (For a case study, see Crossing the Line.) However this is not a getting-to-know-you exercise! Only couples with established mutual trust should attempt to dive in such waters.

Some would-be doms like to talk about "breaking a submissive" as a desired outcome of "training". Sadly for them, people are not horses. You cannot expect to magically level your lover's limits by putting her under sustained pressure. For many kinky couples, the practice of BDSM is indeed about finding and transcending boundaries, over time. Someone facing a boundary to be crossed must decide to do so; forcing them across is almost always damaging, to the individual and the pair.

I've heard of doms who offer general "training" for inexperienced subs. They are, from what I could tell, either players looking for easy kink, or polyamorous people seeking short-term relationships with kink newbies. The fact that a dom offering such a "service" fervently believes that it's for the benefit of the sub doesn't make it so. There's nothing inherently wrong with kinky hookups or short-term relationships, but misleading a new sub about the value of the experience is unfair, and all too common.

So my advice to subs is: "Don't seek BDSM training; work on your emotional and interpersonal skills, and seek a capable, sincere dom." And my advice to doms is: "Definitely seek education and mentoring; what you wish to achieve is hard!" A dom's responsibilities—wielding authority wisely, and teaching and guiding his partner—are not easy, and not inborn. Learning these skills takes focus and practice, and wisdom from those with some mastery of them. Becoming that to which you aspire is a long and often arduous