Understanding Consent from a perspective of reflection

FlipSide1481​(dom male) • Nov 2, 2018

Honestly every partner I have had (playing in private as part of a relationship, after discussing the light system and negotiating) was VERY hesitant to "Red" out. For the exact reasons that the episode discussed. They didn't want the scene to end, or the relationship to be damaged

Specifically in playing with a partner that I had played with ALOT. We finally moved to tieing her up completely nude, (negotiated it and tied her up with arms, legs, spread eagle on the bed). Just as I finished tieing her foot to the leg of the bed and look at her, expecting a happy sub, she was weeping. I ended the scene and in the long discussion that followed she told me she felt she HAD to do this for me, that she was a bad sub not being able to do it. Further that she did not safeword cause it was not that bad and she had "endured" more. There was undisscussed previous trauma that came to light.

As a Dominant it took me quite a while to deal with the feelings. What had I done or implied to make her feel like she had to be a good sub? What if anything could I do to get her to safeword next time? How good are safewords if she wont use them? What if she had been tied face down?

Enthusiastic consent, regular check in between partners during the scene, and making DAMN sure I explain that this is about discovery and we WILL hit stumbling blocks.

I hope others are willing to share stories of safewording or not.

I enjoyed the series alot and recommend it to anyone and everyone.

NaivelyOptimistic​(sub female) • Nov 2, 2018

Man, I am so, so grateful for this reply, @FlipSide, and it drags up so many questions from me. Thank you for your candor.

"What had I done or implied to make her feel like she had to be a good sub?"
This actually really confuses me. I liked that when you were turning around, you were wanting to find a *happy* sub, but aren't Doms wanting *good* subs too? I'm sure the definition of 'good' here may vary with each Dom (and sub), but that would be the crux of the issue, right? I can so easily imagine being in this same scenario, and for me, perhaps in that moment a good sub would endure it— but for you, a good sub would never endure, would express discomfort way before that?

How do you know when you're being pushed to your limits or when your limits are being violated? How do you measure your discomfort to know what a 'healthy' amount is, especially when you're first starting out and everything feels so foreign and... uncomfortable? These are more sub questions, I know. But here's one for the Doms: What would your hope be for navigating subs and their limits and discomfort? That they express all discomfort? Is the onus more on you to check in or on the sub to take that agency and voice it?

FlipSide1481​(dom male) • Nov 2, 2018

For me I expected her to be more vocal about her discomfort. To communicate with me actively with me. Here is the thing she had it in control until she did not. A big part of that aftercare for both of us was reassuring that neither had dine anything wrong. That we had found a mine and were now dealing with it. Each relationship has its own ways of dealing with those mines.

A better way to phrase the question I was asking myself... "In what way had I made her believe that enduring was what I expected of a good sub; had I communicated my expectations?" (A side note: What pressures made her feel that was her role?).


The points you raise about taking agency and responsibility exist in all consent relationships... For example I am often chided by the dentist for "enduring" far too much pain before saying something. Part of the issue is that I go to the dentist expecting to be in pain. The dentist checks in, and me being a not good patient am not honest and tell her I am fine. She starts drilling see my wincing and then probes deeper, reminds me that I should not be in pain. I feel like we all need to be taking agency to communicate.

SSC, RACK, checklists, etc are methods that we use to foster communication about these issues and IMHO to foster open, honest, forthright conversations. In no way are they a panacea. If I were to be starting out as a sub I would have conversations about all this with a prospective D-type. I would also move slowly through new experinces, it is not a sprint.

I realize this post is a little disjointed... I hope it is helpful for furthering the conversation.

NaivelyOptimistic​(sub female) • Nov 2, 2018

That's good food for thought. I'm still a little hung-up on the sub end of things, which I know you can't answer (these are moments I wish you could tag people in the forum to drag them in here and lend their expertise).

"How do you know when you're being pushed to your limits or when your limits are being violated? How do you measure your discomfort to know what a 'healthy' amount is, especially when you're first starting out and everything feels so foreign and... uncomfortable?" < I think these questions feels so important to me because they make up my experience right now. *Everything* is pushing past my comfort zone. In your example at the dentist, which is a very good one, pain is a clear indicator of something gone awry. Unless you're in a scene where you're to expect pain, it would be something you should immediately address. And there are usually clear fixes: the dentist stops drilling or provides more numbing gel, the Dom loosens cuff or gives more slack to the rope.

But the vague, amorphous 'discomfort' feels harder to pin down. In the moment, it feels more difficult to gauge the extent to which I am uncomfortable. (I've woken up the next morning from dates and only then realized how terrible of a time I had the night before because for hours I was focussed on trying to make sure we were having a fun and there wasn't a lull in conversation and pretending to laugh at his jokes. This isn't good; I know. I'm working on it, but it's hard to make space for yourself in that way.) So the idea of being low-key uncomfortable through a whole scene feels likely, especially because I'm new. Does that mean we should stop just because it's uncomfortable? Would that mean stopping every scene in the beginning? How frustrating would that be for a Dom? If that happens, does that mean that I don't have the chops for a sub, because I have all of the heart but my body and mind kind of freak out? I have no idea.

And then if I did express it, the discomfort, there aren't always clear fixes. "This is very weird and I'm not sure how I feel. I don't know if I hate it or love it. I just know I'm starting to feel not-stable about it, and it's not just pleasure I'm experiencing." Man... what does a Dom even do with that?

Clearly we found one of my places of insecurity, lol.

KittySunflower​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

@FlipSide1481, I just have to say.. thank you for sharing. I've learned early on communication is extremely important.

I can relate to and understand your sub point of view. To be so determined to satisfy or avoid certain things you may do things you don't want to.

Of course at this moment in my life I won't do that. I have to speak up and from the beginning or at some point and that's even better trying something that I that know I'm more then likely uncomfortable with.

And when new not knowing your limits for do you really I mean really find a Dom you can trust to train you that won't take advantage. These are all things we think about. I've heard from a few girls in here about just that.

Not all have this is common place but of course it does exist.

CK45​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

Flipside, thank you for your post.
I think it is a great thing that you took the time to “read” your sub.
In the series there was young woman that said her date stopped when he noticed things weren’t quite right..The young woman had a lot of respect, trust and felt safe after that (she said they are still together).
Realizing that sometimes people don’t say stop and why they don’t is such a big thing on both sides of the coin.
We can check ourselves and watch for signs if we know it can potentially be a problem for the other person.
As one person said in the series..It’s about wanting them to enjoy it as much as you do.
I guess the only issue is how fast people jump into the sexual part of a relationship these days, I mean do people really care if they hardly know the other person??

KittySunflower​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

@ck45.
That's great insight. A Dom has to "read" a sub and get to know each other.
Open communication always if you want things to last.
As you said in the end... does this not matter any more??? Are we just doing the superficial things then jumping too quickly into sex? Well not exactly what you said but still.
I haven't listened to everything but will shortly.
Thanks David for posting such a great informational topic.

CK45​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

Phxkitty,
I think it matters to some and not to others.
Maybe that would be the difference in how people initially approach each other on here (or any other place really).
“Hey, slut...kneel for me” vs “I would like to get to know you before jumping in, I want us both to be comfortable...” ??
I know it’s more than that but you get the idea..
?

NaivelyOptimistic​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

Yes, I totally agree what what you guys are saying. I think most Tops would agree that trust is important and they would require it from a bottom in order for a relationship or scene to be mutually fulfilling, but the difference here, I think, is between trust being earned vs. given.

Without the foundation of getting to know each other and building a relationship, I cannot give you my trust, as if I have a volitional choice in the matter. But many seem to believe this: we enter into a scene/relationship, I am the Top, you are the bottom, therefore, CHOOSE to trust me. In my experience, trust develops over time, layer by layer, and it cannot be forced, requested, or simply handed over.

I trust chairs to support my weight because they always have. I have no reason to doubt them; I don't even think about it before I sit down. But then there are things like skydiving, and that to me isn't trust: that's taking a risk. Your first time skydiving, you don't know that the parachute will open, you don't know that you'll do everything right, you don't know that you won't be injured when you land, but you do it anyway. Not because you trust everything will be okay, but because the it seems worth the risks. You're placing a bet.

People do this in relationships too (BDSM and otherwise): I don't know you well enough to give you this much power/information/control, but I'm going to anyway. And these are not people who are choosing to trust (though they may call it this), these are people who are gambling. Because in reality, they don't know the outcome, they have no history of reliability and character to look back on.

This isn't to say that taking the risk is bad-- sometimes risks pay off. But you should know exactly what you're willing to offer and what you're asking of someone.

NaivelyOptimistic​(sub female) • Nov 4, 2018

I feel like I need to add: I think trust is built through lots of small risks being taken. This often looks like vulnerability. You give someone a peek into your past and see how they respond. Do they handle that information with care? Do they shrug it off? Do they use it later as ammunition?

Vulnerability takes many different forms: physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, sharing of hopes and dreams and fears and failures. And all of that, in the wrong hands, is risky. That's why you don't hand it over all at once. You build up the blocks one by one, each of you offering those scarred and naked parts of yourself. It's measured and intentional. It's deserved. It's earned.

***

I don't know how all this rambling meshes with something like finding someone to publicly play with one night in a dungeon. Is that just risk? Is it trust because of reputations involved? I have no clue. I can't imagine myself there, but I know many people dabble in that world. Maybe they can weigh in on how they choose partners for that and the level of comfort they feel.