genderfication

Heero(dom male)

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

I’m sorry, I’m not going to go through 3000 words and pick out particular instances where you alluded to “vitriol” and “those supporting inclusivity making it worse” (those are loose quotes).

That is fine.

What is your general view of my position? I won't be a stickler for you not using direct quotes or anything. But what is it that you generally think I am off base with?

Sweetlydepraved(masochist female){I Guess }

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Heero wrote:

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

Heero, I was done responding to this topic, but I’m responding to you. I would like you to look up the definition of vitriol and then quote the instances of vitriol. I would also suggest you go look at the post “Genderization Going Forward” and tell me who wasn’t civilized there. I’d also like for you to tell us who tried to make an effort to thoughtfully respond and who directed people back here because she didn’t get the response she wanted. Then I’d like for you to go back to the other post, “Why do men like breasts” and tell me who started being negative first. Then you might want to go through six months of history where women are consistently saying “Hey, you’re making us feel bad” and tell me who is the one pitching fits because women dare to speak on her posts.

That’s a lot of work, I don’t expect you to do all of that, but you’re way off base because you just now started paying attention. A great deal of people have been watching this for months. Reaching out privately for months. Repeatedly asking for a little consideration, and being attacked regardless.

Also, me linking to the “Genderization Going Forward” was me using it a an example of civilized discourse at the time, not a non-example. At the time there were only two responses and they seemed very civil to me. I believe you made one of them.

But hey, if this is a post about a particular user as opposed to a general discussion, it is quite possible for me to be off base, because I'm engaging in the latter.

I stand by the points I made as a general point of view. It's really a different thing to me to look at a particular user's history. All I know is the cage seems very negative these days and on average I see it coming from both sides. And since a lot of the people being vocal here are on one side, I am deciding to argue the other. I do not condone any individual being deliberately and without just cause being antagonistic towards another, whether they be poster or responder.

That makes a lot more sense.

Sweetlydepraved(masochist female){I Guess }

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Heero wrote:

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

That is fine.

What is your general view of my position? I won't be a stickler for you not using direct quotes or anything. But what is it that you generally think I am off base with?

I see that you’re taking an alternative, argumentative view. I don’t mean argumentative in a negative way. It’s perfectly valid to propose a different/alternative viewpoint.

Heero(dom male)

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

Heero wrote:

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

That makes a lot more sense.

Yes, I do write a lot (and vaguely proofread as a result) and if you don't get in early and follow everything, it is easy to get lost. I'm not sure I'd read my own posts if I were someone else, tbh 😅. I do think I would give insights worth considering to someone interested and motivated to read though, so I write away.

Sweetlydepraved(masochist female){I Guess }

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Heero wrote:

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

Heero wrote:

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

That makes a lot more sense.

Well, it’s important to be succinct, otherwise you drown out your own message. I feel like that’s what happened here. I couldn’t find your message but I see it now and I apologize if I came off as cunty. I was definitely being a little cunty.

Heero(dom male)

2 months ago • Aug 21, 2024

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

Haha, yes. I need an editor. Not being succinct is an occupational hazard.

You did not come off that way to me. While unnecessary, I appreciate the apology. But we're good in my book.

In the end, I hope this discussion causes us all to reflect and bring inclusivity and light heartedness where needed. We all want to create a welcoming and vibrant community, and we can't lose sight of that.

intenseoldman(dom male)

2 months ago • Aug 22, 2024

Heero wrote:

intenseoldman wrote:

Oh, shit, I thought I might be stepping into it there. So.... I went back and read what you wrote. Let me see if I understand and correct me if I'm wrong, but try to keep it to a 100 words

Haha, no worries. And if you can keep it to 100 words, you're a better man than I.

Disclaimer: there are times I use "you" a lot here. It is the proverbial "you" much of the time. I hope such times are clear by context.

intenseoldman wrote:

So you're using your syllogistic fallacy as a non example of logic for not having a hard rule about inclusion.

You keep saying I made a syllogistic fallacy. I did not.

True, I knew what a syllogistic fallacy was, once, but, yeah, you're right, no conclusion.

I don't know how it got twisted up that I thought you wanted an inclusion rule. It was my understanding you didn't, but this soup's had a lot of stuff throw'n in since it's inception... hard to keep up.

Heero wrote:

And if inclusion concerns you, several better solutions than fighting in the forums have been given.

Yeah, we might be going around in circles, but it does concern me. The fighting, in as far as "responding with vitriol". I see very little of compared to the amounts of patient, gentle, reasoning that, IMHO. people just refuse to listen to.

Heero wrote:

It seems to me to be a very decent chance of late, that the people who are calling for less negativity and more inclusion are in fact the ones causing the problem. And the post could have gone on just fine without the negativity being hurled at the OP.

And I see it the opposite... so agree to disagree.

Heero wrote:

This reminds me of another post the other day when some kid said they're ocd or something, I forget, and they went on to describe a problem they have, asking for advice. And someone went up in arms about how it's a serious medical condition blah blah blah and they should not make light of it. It's a phrase dude, chill. The poster OBVIOUSLY didn't mean anything by it, and it was NOT the place or the way to bring awareness to something like that. If you think that phrase is detrimental to society, there are better ways to go about bringing awareness to that. As I vaguely recall, the poster actually wanted some serious advice on something, and the hate comments just derailed things. Luckily some users saved it and could get some good advice in (as well as push back against the shit poster--good job people, you're heros in my book), but by that time, I was already so turned off I stopped paying attention. So my memory of the specifics might be off somewhat.

And that's what we're all standing against.

Heero wrote:

But what that person did with the phrase "ocd", is what some people are doing with gender and other things. And it's NOT helpful. And I know many of these people have the best of intentions, which is why I do want to emphasize that it's not helpful and trying to explain why. It is my assumption, giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they actually want to do right and not just appear right.

Nah, that's not the best comparison. There's more layers of complexity to this. We are seeing the same thing, but drawing different conclusions.

Heero wrote:

I will say this though, I am NOT advocating for a rule here...because I don't think there needs to be one. On the contrary, it is the other side that is saying what SHOULD be done.

Damn, so now we're picking sides?

intenseoldman wrote:

Nobody here is asking for any hard rule for inclusion.

Heero wrote:

Really? Because when you say to someone something like "you should use 'people' and not 'ladies'", you are in fact creating a rule. It's not a formal one, but it is a rule nonetheless.

sounds like a suggestion to me... but, no need to write a Bible about it

intenseoldman wrote:

You give examples of situations where it would be absurd for everyone to be included, and I agree. You think for me to say where you could, you should is wrong... okay. How about where you could, you might at least think about it. Just be aware.

Heero wrote:

Sure. I'm all for awareness. A lack of awareness is one of the great problems with society as far as I can see.

It is.

Heero wrote:

And again, I don't think we're actually disagreeing about how to go about things generally. What I am saying is that what you're saying does not happen all the time. And a lot of people who are trying to be a part of the solution end up being a part of the problem. They do not phrase things as eloquently or softly as you do. If people spoke the way you do here, kind sir, then no post would be taken down, and we would not have such animosity. But clearly there are a lot of people here with strong negative feelings.

And others with passion for what they believe, and they are just trying to be listened to and not reacted to

intenseoldman wrote:

Some feel others could be more inclusive and have explained their reasons for their stances without vitriol, but with patient gentle reasoning,. I feel they deserve to be listened to. In the end, I think what everyone wants is a better tone.

Heero wrote:

Agreed. No problems with that at all.

Kumbaya

intenseoldman wrote:

And, yeah, I guess sayin you were saying the public forum is exclusionary by nature since it includes personal issues.... that was fallacious. That's not where you were going. Kumbaya

Heero wrote:

Haha, yes. Of course. I'm glad we're getting more on the same page. I'm quite long winded as you can tell, so feel free to let me know of anything else you need cleared up.

No, but if I ever need the waters muddied...

Nightshade Ophelia(sub female)

2 months ago • Aug 22, 2024

I am so thankful for this topic. I haven't read all of the replies but this is something that I've been trying to write about but then it feels so overwhelming.

Before I discovered the Cage, I had an intense discussion with a male friend about gender roles and differences, the conversation eventually caused a rift in our friendship. I have and felt intense conflict and grief ever since.

Exploring kink has also been an internal battle for me, I'm trying to decide what is authentic for me and what is indoctrination that is harming me.

I have been in feminist spaces and I always talk about this because I still identify as a feminist-leaning person (feminist in the sense that I would like to be a submissive without losing my life, being taken advantage of, or being abused) but I feel so disillusioned by conversations on social media about gender roles and relationships. No matter where one goes, the gender issue is an intense conversation. I understand why it is intense but the direction that these conversations are going is very scary on all ends. These past few weeks, for some reason, I have been feeling extremely frustrated, anxious, and disappointed. I believe that the discussions are leading nowhere because they lack nuance, and are not rooted in finding real solutions but are rather reactionary.

I was having a conversation with my best friend about unlearning toxic ideas and reframing our worldviews. We come from a "High-Control" spiritual community and we have been deconstructing the ideas from the different spaces that we have encountered as we grew up; from the Toxic Christian indoctrination (I don't believe Christianity is bad but we have had people in our lives use Christianity to inflict or justify abuse) of our childhoods to the harmful ideas that we learned in our current spiritual community that we chose. One thing that our journey has taught us is that people enter new spaces with baggage that we collect through our journey and deciding what is trash and what is a jewel of wisdom is hard.

Obviously, people also come into kink with the ideas that they have been taught or picked up throughout their journey in life, deciding what is harmful and what is beneficial for a person is such a difficult task but it is extremely personal. This will be reflected in how people interact with each other in these spaces.

There was a blog post, about two months ago, that really triggered me. I felt like it was harmful to women who are submissive and that it was "victim blamey". I talked to my Daddy about it, and I realized how I was treating it like a TikTok post "I don't agree with it, it's harmful and I hope it gets taken down". However, when we spoke about what was actually triggering ME about it, I realized that it was more than the abrasive tone that it was written in but I was also struggling with some internal stuff that made me take the post personally. On a subconscious level, it felt like a personal attack. I am now trying to see things from another person's perspective and not villainize someone for not agreeing with them. I still think that the post would have been more effective if it was written in a way that was intended to educate instead of shame, but I also understood the purpose of that post.

I think society fails us in many ways when it comes to conversations about our differences as human beings. It's not just with gender issues but whenever differences come up, it is always intense and I understand these conversations often feel like "life or death" because sometimes they are a matter of life or death. I think how things are communicated is important and the context; there's a difference between offering an opinion and speaking over a person, or finding commonalities and dismissing a person's struggles. It's so hard to navigate these conversations though, especially in a modern world that is very polarizing and unforgiving.

Sweetlydepraved(masochist female){I Guess }

2 months ago • Aug 22, 2024

Nightshade Ophelia wrote:

Thank you for sharing your story, that in itself can be hard to do. There are a great many things we can do to build our resilience, and it sounds like you’ve started on that track by learning what your triggers might be. That’s also hard to do because we don’t only need to identify them, we also have to find the why behind them and that why is most often some type of trauma.

Unfortunately, society does often fail us, and it doesn’t have to be that way. It really doesn’t. That starts with the individuals having the hard conversations, doing the hard self reflection, and sometimes experiencing growing pains.

Miss Anima(dom female)

2 months ago • Aug 22, 2024

Sweetlydepraved wrote:

The more you speak in public the greater your level of responsibility. Most especially when you’re approaching it as an educational topic.

I’m sorry that you weren’t aware of this. I understand that you may not have all the tools to be successful with public discourse, but people are trying to give you those tools over a period of months and you’re intentionally choosing not to use them. People have told you time and time again that the forum isn’t your personal space for education, it’s a collective. Your words and attitudes are harmful to the collective.

I am not thinking about you and you and you or me. I’m thinking about the 22 year old who is struggling with their identity. I’m thinking about the battered woman who is just now starting to use her voice. I’m thinking about the transgender person who feels excluded every single day of their life.

It’s literally my job to protect disadvantaged populations. I’m the one in the trenches working with at risk youth to prevent things like suicide.

51% of transgender individuals aged 18-29 have considered suicide (JAMA Network Open, 2020).

29% of transgender individuals aged 18-29 have attempted suicide (JAMA Network Open, 2020).

42% of LGBTQ+ youth (aged 13-24) have seriously considered suicide in the past year (The Trevor Project, 2023).

19% of LGBTQ+ youth have attempted suicide in the past year (The Trevor Project, 2023).

Transgender and non-binary youth are 2 to 3 times more likely to attempt suicide compared to their cisgender peers (The Trevor Project, 2023).

86% of LGBTQ+ youth report that recent politics negatively impacted their well-being, contributing to increased suicidal thoughts (The Trevor Project, 2023)

Let those numbers sit with you. Stop thinking about yourself for a minute of your day, and think about who you are hurting.

I am passionate about this topic because I see the effect of the harm done every day. It takes SO little effort for people to put a stop to it. All it would take for you is to change a couple of words in your post, and putting forth the effort to not be dismissive to others who don’t fit your demographic agenda. That’s all it takes. 2 minutes of being thoughtful and intentional.

It is not her responsibility for other people , you spending all this time reprimanding her when you could've been on other sites helping the people you keep blabbering on saying you're concerned for would be a good idea for you to start with before you preach to others.
If her posts are out of place that is for admin to deal with not you and your henchman.