Online now
Online now

Assertiveness issues

CLDD​(dom butch)
3 weeks ago • Nov 9, 2024

Assertiveness issues

CLDD​(dom butch) • Nov 9, 2024
I’m relatively need to this dynamic, and loving every minute of it.
My partner is a highly experienced submissive. She has been spoiled in the past, with highly experienced Doms.
She says I have natural tendencies, but she also says I know nothing. I have been reading, going to munches, watching videos, grabbing as much information as I can, and I’m learning a lot.
Having been raised in a strict Christian household, I still have some blocks surrounding my being assertive.
How do you overcome this?
My partner has made it very clear that she does not want to be my “training wheels“. She would like me to come to her as an experienced Dom. Our relationship is suffering greatly as a result of my inexperience.
Ideally, I would love to find a mentor. Your gender doesn’t matter, but your offer to assist would be greatly appreciated.
MisterAshmodai​(dom male)
3 weeks ago • Nov 9, 2024
MisterAshmodai​(dom male) • Nov 9, 2024
First and foremost, this is going to be exponentially more difficult if your partner refuses to help you or, at least, maintain an open mind during your development. The only good thing that will come from that is a crash-course in how subjective kink is and the importance of suspending the role-play to communicate effectively. So, I would recommend a frank conversation about expectations with your potential sub. You're probably not going to become the ideal Dom she is picturing overnight and it is not fair to expect that of you if she is not willing to share her personal interpretation of what that means with you.

With that out of the way, being assertive is all about maintaining a certain expectation of how things are going to be and portraying the confidence and arrogance that compel others to follow your direction. And, it is indeed arrogance. I know that word gets a lot of flak in most kink circles, but the truth of the matter is that you won't always have a clear path to defining respect to the degree that objectively differentiates arrogance and confidence. There will be times when you simply have to act with audacity. The ratio here depends entirely on what your partner is looking for (paired with what you are comfortable providing), and an unwillingness to define their specific wants to help you out leads me to believe that they will probably want more arrogance either from ignorance or self destructive tendency.

If you do not already understand it, I would devote time to the concepts of consent and respecting your partner, as these are integral foundations for the balancing act that is dominant role play. If you have been absorbing a lot of non-fictional kink media, I imagine you have already come across these concepts. The basic idea is that any partner you have will be a fully-formed and autonomous entity and you need to treat them as such.

After that, I would recommend media with assertive characters. Expand beyond the bounds of what is generally considered kinky. Try romance novels, mythological hero stories, perhaps even horror (I've had a lot of luck with horror). Make sure you apply respect for your partner as some fictitous portrayals can get messy in terms of what is emotionally healthy, but once again, the most important factor in fine tuning will be your and your partner's subjective wants and needs, so communicate.

Being assertive is basically a 'fake it until you are comfortable with it' situation. Try things out that you read or see that resonate with you. Experiment and see what works for your partner. As you learn what works, you will be less on the spot which will make you more comfortable. Being comfortable with what you are doing is all confidence is, and once you are confident, assertiveness is really just a matter of speaking up or acting on your desires. It just has to be built up and absolutely requires communication.
CLDD​(dom butch)
3 weeks ago • Nov 9, 2024
CLDD​(dom butch) • Nov 9, 2024
Thank you, that is a brilliant response! It makes complete sense.

One of my main issues, is I have been raised to be a kind, gentle, tender, loving person. With that being said, safety would always be paramount. There’s where my hesitation comes in. I wouldn’t, after all, want to ‘poke out an eye’, through incompetence.
She, of course, feels my trepidation. How can she feel confident in my abilities, if I don’t demonstrate that I feel confident.

However, my confidence has grown greatly in the past few months, due to feeling comfortable with certain scenarios
MisterAshmodai​(dom male)
3 weeks ago • Nov 10, 2024
MisterAshmodai​(dom male) • Nov 10, 2024
Confidence in your technical skills is a different animal to confidence in your assertive nature, though, as you are pointing out in your comment, it is still part of the gestalt.

Technical expertise is definitely not a 'fake it until you make it' scenario and both you and your partner need to acknowledge that. It is good that you are apprehensive about taking that too quickly. It requires a lot of practice on top of having an academic familiarity with the process. Basically, you avoid accidentally poking out an eye by avoiding any activity that could result in eye poking until you have both a latent control over your physical self and a specific comfort with the eye poking activity. Your partner needs to accept that you are not ready to engage in riskier play until you are not only competant, but comfortable with doing so.

I spend a lot of time practicing in ways that don't even involve my partners, but allow me to mess up and learn to control myself. I use a heavy bag for implement practice because it allows me to become familiar with aim and distance quick helps with crops and whips and such. I also strike the bag with my hands to become comfortable with how to hit flatly and not hurt myself. I spend a lot of time cutting chicken and pork to practice knife play, learning how to apply pressure and how flesh collapses slightly before splitting. These are specific examples that apply to specific activities, so you might need to be creative with how you practice to improve your skill sets, but the concept is still relevant.

Learn where it is safe to hit and focus on that to start. You can do a lot to a buttock before risking damage. The thighs and upper back are also pretty resilient. You can find a lot of resources on how to go about the technical stuff.
Softnote​(masochist female){None }
3 weeks ago • Nov 10, 2024
secretary movie 2002
The Pet (2006)
Fifty Shades Freed
Story of O
The Ugly Truth
Dita von teese erotica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WUTp5xZvNo&t=25s
Madonna - Erotica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyhdvRWEWRw
Christina Aguilera - Not Myself Tonight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt-tHcQR67Y
Rihanna - S&M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdS6HFQ_LUc
Betty Page dances Her "Sacred Shimmy Dance"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8gJqauk6nY&list=PLzMI2vMpH6b8S_ergXiKh75DslDtyQeZb&index=10
undress for your husband
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VaZAVdcNO7U






Taken in hand to behind closed doors erotica D/s
Take hand lead the way show her and grow with her.
Imagination but with the mind be little aggressive nice out of pain with love with a little romantically erotic that leads time and place for it. Dressing the part , Self love self care putting the tools together. Making a spider chain web from bed frame or closet frame to making a frame for it , Look up supplies , Do your homework. Feel it , want it be it , the mood with the smell as sub gets addicted to the pheromones of her leading hand man. Leather and lace even sheer. Shackles , bond and blind folded rose tickling her body and rubbing her down with other things to hard core.

You are not trying to control a woman. You are trying to seduce her mind. To further understand the
difference between Domineering and Dominance.
There are three key factors a Dom must inspire within submissive to be successful:
1) Inspiring Trust & Safety
The primary role of a Dominant is to ensure a submissive9s physical and emotional safety during a
session. A submissive must feel safe enough to give over full control over her body and mind. A person
who makes her fearful, nervous, threatened or pressured cannot achieve the primary requirement of
a Dominant to inspire her sense of safety & trust.
That is not to say play with your Dom cannot be wild, rough and edgy because I also like my play a
little rough and primal 3 hand on the throat, hair pulling, pinned up against a wall. But the difference is
you have established a foundation of trust and established limits of your rough play based on that trust
with your Dom as opposed to a complete stranger you are meeting for the very first time in person
who makes you feel edgy.
If any man claiming to be a <Dom= makes any submissive feel nervous, fearful, pressured or on edge,
I would advise that submissive to calmly excuse herself to use the washroom and then make a direct
line to the nearest exit and never look back. The voice you are hearing inside your head is millions of
years of evolutionary instincts trying to keep you safe. ALWAYS listen to that voice.
2) Inspiring Confidence

Confidence is the calm, in control energy we exude that draws people to us and makes other people
want to follow us. A Dom must exude confidence for a submissive to want to hand over control to him.
Inspiring Confidence:
▪ Put her at ease
▪ Be friendly & relaxed
▪ Speak slowly & calmly
▪ Maintain eye contact & smile
▪ Ask a submissive about her limits, concerns, experiences and desires.
▪ Speak intelligently about your domination style, interests, and kinks
3) Seducing Her Mind
A submissive chooses as her Dominant who she wants to give control over of her body and mind…
So you must be able to seduce her mind and inspire her body. Seduce the mind first, then the body
follows eagerly…
Confidence is the essence of sexy. You cannot lack confidence and also be sexy to the opposite sex.
I have written many articles about the various aspect of the art of seduction. They all come into play
in seducing the mind but confidence in the foundation of it all. Being able to read body language and
being able to respond to those subconscious cues is a key requirement.
* Eye contact
* Body language
* Being bold and suggestive
* Flirting is the key…
My favourite flirty ice-breaker:
In my experience, even good girls like to be spanked from time to time…
If you can deliver that simple line while maintaining eye contact with a naughty smile, you will
immediately see the conversation change direction 3 it will become more intimate, sexual and flirty.
Her reaction to that line will tell you so much about who she really is as a woman.

Is All BDSM The Same?
Sensual Domination vs. Sadism
To set the correct context for my blog I should first explain there is an entire spectrum of sexual
interests which all fit under the broad heading of BDSM. My blog only discusses the aspects of the
BDSM spectrum called Sensual Domination. I am not an expert on Sadism so I will not be discussing
it in length.
The two ends of the BDSM spectrum are Sensual Domination and Sadism:
▪ Sado-Masochism is the mainstream of BDSM. Sadism is about tearing down a sub, enduring
pain/humiliation as a badge of honour and behaviour modification to mold a submissive.
Sadism does not necessarily involve sex but can involve severe pain, and various forms of
humiliation. Sadism is sometimes referred to as <Hard Domination=.
▪ Sensual Domination is about building up a sub9s confidence and unleashing the untapped
sexuality of a submissive using flirtations, dirty talk, eye contact, various foreplay methods
and multiple orgasms. Sensual Domination usually involves sex but does not involve extreme
pain or humiliation. Sensual Domination is primarily about first arousing the mind then taking
the body to wild new heightened sexual states. Sensual Domination is a way of developing a
deep sexual hunger by intense sexual experiences 3 Imagine 20+ orgasms in an evening.
Sensual Domination is sometimes referred to as <Soft Domination=.
Can sadism and sensual domination coexist? Yes… For example, I always make a sub ask permission
to cum as I stimulate her pussy intensely. I will deny her permission numerous times until I sense a
hint of desperation in her voice as she is about to lose complete control over her body. At that very
moment, I will spank her has ass as hard as I can to evoke an intense pain response in her brain which
will break her concentration and prevent her body from cumming while keeping her teetering on the
edge of ecstasy. I would use this method repeatedly during the session to keep a submissive in a
highly aroused state for hours without an orgasm 3 This technique is called Orgasm Denial.
Does Sensual Domination always lead to physical contact or sex? No… I will often arouse my
submissive at work with numerous sexual texts. I will make her intensely aroused while at work and I
will deny her the option to masturbate in the ladies washroom. Keeping her in a perpetual state of
arousal while maintaining a proper work persona is part of her challenge. should also explain there is no <one right way= to enjoy or practice BDSM. BDSM is like an a la carte
Chinese menu 3 choose whatever you like from the menu then that is the right BDSM for you…

Trust is something that cannot be rushed. Trust takes years to develop and can be wiped out in 2
seconds… With trust and commitment come the ability to be emotionally open, even about your most
intimate aspect of yourself.
The more confident a woman feels with her man the more sexually expressive she will be and of
course, deeper her submission. A part of domination is about leading her to places she didn9t even
know she wanted to go yet.
The Riches of Exclusivity and Commitment:
I believe there is a highly loving and deeply sexual vixen hidden deep inside every woman. The role
of any male partner is to give her an emotionally safe place where she can feel at ease to reveal her
<Inner Vixen=, without fear of rejection, ridicule, or judgement.
To expose your true self to another person, especially your kinkiest, darkest desires and fantasies,
takes an incredible level of trust. The foundation of emotional trust comes from knowing this person is
committed to you. Commitment ensures what intimate details you share about yourself is a shared
secret held in strictest confidence between the two of you.
Being The Trusted Keeper of Her Darkest Secrets
I am drawn to the persona of an Alpha submissive woman who projects a strong, confident, stylish,
intelligent public image but craves to submit to a strong confident Dominant man in private . She has
lots of armour and confidence on the outside but remains deeply feminine, fragile and soft on the
inside…
A Sensual Dominant man, find that contradiction incredibly sexy, deeply erotic and very alluring.
Giving her an emotional sanctuary from the outside world would be my deepest honour. Keeping her
darkest secrets of who she really is the kind of deep intimacy I crave. The depth of intimacy that comes
with being completely emotionally naked with a woman by knowing her deepest secrets, fears,
fantasies and dreams is something I crave.

A man of honour and integrity takes those dark intimate secrets to his grave, treats her as a princess
in public, defends her honour always and encourages her to achieve all her goals. Then, in return, I
get the deliciously naughty vixen who will do anything I desire and wants to give me every fantasy I
can imagine…

Building Her Up!: Nurturing A Confident, Vivacious
Sensual Submissive
There are many misconceptions about Sensual Domination and BDSM. The most common misconception
about Domination is that it is about the degradation and abuse of women.
Unless you understand the nature of a Sensual D/s relationship, you would think that degradation and
abuse is the purpose of the relationship when looking from the outside. It is completely counter-intuitive
that the path to nurturing the sensual submissive desires within a woman is to build her self-
confidence and make her feel beautiful, sexy, cherished and deeply desired… It makes absolutely no
sense on the surface. It is clearly an intellectual contradiction that most ordinary people cannot grasp
without experiencing it for themselves.
This is a complex and confusing onion to understand. So let9s first peel back a few layers to help
understand the foundation of the dynamics at play. Let9s forget that about the naughty man with the
whip/paddle/hand (i.e Me) involved in this relationship and focus solely on the psychology of the
woman and her sexual needs & desires. Secondly, let9s forget this woman is wildly kinky and her
desires are to feel <owned= and <used= by a man sexually. Let9s imagine she is a very average woman
who craves completely vanilla sex with just her BF/husband/partner, just she wants a lot more
passionate love-making.
How would you advise this completely ordinary vanilla woman how to feel sexier and more able to
express her sexual desires? Would you recommend she do such things as?
▪ Buy a new sexy dress and shoes
▪ Go to the spa to pamper herself
▪ Get a new hair style
▪ Buy some sexy lingerie that flatters her body shape
▪ Achieve a personal goal or pursue a personal interest
What do all these have in common? Hopefully the light bulb just went on in your head. The foundation
is self-confidence. Confidence is the essence of sexy. It is the energy we exude that draws people to
us. Regardless of the nature of her sexual desires, to make any woman feel sexier you must build up/


her self-confidence. That is the key to understanding how to nurture a beautiful insatiable, uninhibited
vixen from within any woman with submissive desires. She is just a woman at the core…
Scars From Your Life Journey:
In your journey through life, our former partners, friends and family have a way of permanently scarring
us with their words. These cruel words permanently alter our self-perception 3 our looks, our sex
appeal, our body, our weight, our sexual ability. These emotional scars manifest as inhibitions, a lack
of confidence, aversions or <emotional landmines= that set us off.
Part of being a good Sensual Dom is being able to recognize and remove the psychological obstacles
in the way of a woman feeling highly self-confident, highly sexual and highly desired.
It may be a useful tool for diagnosing the emotional needs of a submissive and your
relationship with her.
Seeing Her Own Beauty Through My Eyes:
One fun way I start to change the self-perception of a submissive woman is shopping for a special
outfit to dress her up for me (sexy lingerie, stockings, CFM heels, make up, jewelry). The process of
shopping together for her special outfit ensures her mind is aroused for several days in advance which
serves to extend mental foreplay of anticipation out to several days in advance of our intimate meeting.
In the process of dressing up, a woman feels very beautiful, highly self-confident, desired and
extremely aroused.
The second thing I do is I take a series of beautiful, erotic photos of her all dressed up in lingerie so
she sees her own beauty captured through my eyes. That is a simple feedback loop from me to her of
sexual energy that builds up a woman9s self-esteem.
Lastly, we play an erotic role-play game during the end of the photoshoot whereby her objective is to
pose in increasingly suggestive poses that make me so horny that I want to put down the camera a ravage her…

I capture her most sexual self in stunningly beautiful photos that make her feel beautiful, sexy
and desired.
▪ She escapes the mental restraints of her ordinary life to role-play a highly confident & highly
sexually expressive woman
▪ She is so mentally aroused by the whole process for several days, she experiences incredibly
powerful orgasms
▪ We have incredibly hot, wild sex and create beautiful sexy photos as memories which makes
everyone happy to do this again.
The Longer Journey:
Building up a person9s self-confidence is not a quick fix but this is a good starting point to build from.
It takes consistent love, support and encouragement over time for someone to accept themselves and
to see their own value… Praise costs us nothing to give but it is priceless to the recipient 3 praise
profusely and often. Remember, it is a process over time; not an event…
By building up the sexual confidence of a submissive, she feels increasingly powerful to freely express
her sexual desire. So now you should see that Sensual Domination is not an act of abuse and
degradation of women. It is an act of great caring and love of a woman. Only a man who truly loves,
cherishes and appreciates women could unleash them sexually.
Pre-Foreplay: Arouse The Mind, Then The Body
Follows Eagerly
I strongly believe the mind is our largest sex organ. I absolutely love and thoroughly enjoy the lost art of
seduction! I don9t think I fully appreciated the importance and the erotic fun of building that sense of
anticipation inside a partner until much later in life… With maturity and experience comes an appreciation
for the finer things in life 3 like a fine gourmet meal with many courses, the goal of great sex is to savor
each course slowly and enjoy the journey rather than rushing to the destination. With time, you learn that
truly mind-blowing sex in not a purely physical act of genitals but an act of intense emotions with someone
you are deeply connected to that starts in the mind.
I describe the art of creating sexual anticipation in a partner as <Pre-Foreplay=. The basic idea of <Pre-
Foreplay= is making a female partner incredibly mentally aroused so she is intensely turned on
BEFORE you ever touch or ksiss her… Pre-foreplay extends physical foreplay out to several days of
romantic mental foreplay. A highly mentally aroused woman can climax much faster, much easier and
much more often. I firmly believe multiple female orgasms are the key metric of a loving, happy
relationship because it truly measures being emotionally and physically connected as a couple.

To understand men, you need first to understand how we think (or don9t think). Most men are selfishly
focused on their own orgasm and all the things that support that end. Most men don9t see what is in it
for them to think about a woman9s pleasure or arousal . So they don9t really see the <Marketing Value
Proposition= or bigger picture or broader benefits of things such as romance, flirting and giving lots of
foreplay. However, they know they need to go through the motions in order to get sex but they don9t
really see the inherent value of focusing on the emotional and physical needs of women. Most men
can tactically see the <trees= of romance (smell nice, dress nice, buy flowers, go for dinner, be attentive,
etc.) they need to do but most men cannot see the bigger picture of the <forest= of mental arousal &
emotional needs. Men know we should buy flowers, dress nice and go out to dinner to get laid…. And
that9s about the depth of our understanding of women… Honestly, none of us really get what women
want beyond this…
However, if we told men <Romance & Foreplay is how you turn your Wife or GF into a vixen in bed=,
we immediately capture their attention 3 The value proposition is very clear to men then. There is an
old saying, <Appreciate the Lady in public to get the Vixen in the bedroom=. No truer words have been
spoken about how women are wired…
Sadly, it is the reason why most women only experience 0-2 orgasms ever in their sex lives. Women
are much more mental & emotional then physical; whereas men are obsessed with the physical
aspects of penis size, sexual performance and sexual technique. Most women need more time and
mental stimulation to <warm up= sexually and their male partners are not focused on a woman9s mental
and emotional needs.
Metaphorically, I describe women are like sexual <slow-cookers= and men are like sexual <microwave
ovens.= Most women are capable of having 2-10 orgasms and some fortunate women, 40+ orgasms
during an evening however 95% of women have no clue their body has this powerful sexual ability.
Given the right mental arousal, setting and sexual technique, the sky is the limit. The key is knowing
the best time to give a woman an orgasm is right after she has just had an orgasm… After a woman
achieves her first orgasm, it only gets easier and faster to make her cum again. Just don9t stop when
you get in a rhythm. Another orgasm is just a few seconds away!!

realize that if they spent more time/effort making the <slow-cooker= overheat a few
times first THEN turn on the <microwave oven=, they would be rewarded with the wildest sex of their
lives and they would have much happier, rewarding and satisfying relationships… Like Christmas, you
get so much more from giving and you are amazed how much more you get back in return…

Dominant Soul blog use to be on wordpress gone but it was wrote here just education use.
https://www.studocu.com/en-us/document/utah-state-university/slavery-in-atlantic-world/dominate-soul-slavery/31079278
CLDD​(dom butch)
3 weeks ago • Nov 11, 2024
CLDD​(dom butch) • Nov 11, 2024
Thank you! I just learned a great deal from you! Wow!!!
Bunnie
2 weeks ago • Nov 14, 2024
Bunnie • Nov 14, 2024
My question is, if she’s so highly experienced, why is she making you feel inadequate?

Comparison does not help anyone’s confidence.
If she wants to walk this path with you, in my opinion, she needs to humble herself a bit and remove this contest of “who knows more.”
She has had past experiences. So what? That means nothing when it comes to what needs to be created between the two of you for it to become authentically and uniquely yours. And to me, a “highly experienced” submissive would know this. We don’t carry our past training into a new dynamic… we start from scratch, basing ourselves around learning to align with our new Dominant. This isn’t about “build a Dom 101.”

We can only learn and grow at the pace that we can learn and grow at. Impatience doesn’t change anything. If anything it simply adds pressure and ironically, difficulty in being assertive in expressing ourselves.
The values you carry are not antithetical to being a Dominant… you can be a kind, gentle, tender loving person, and still embrace leadership within your dynamic. It’s simply a matter of discovering what your natural flavour is, and working to enhance that.
Reaching out and asking questions, listening, researching, becoming active in your local community, seeking a mentor… these are all very admirable efforts and says an lot about your character. In my opinion, you’re doing great! Keep going icon_smile.gif
    The most loved post in topic
Bishop​(dom male)Verified member
Bishop​(dom male)Verified member
2 weeks ago • Nov 14, 2024
Bishop​(dom male)Verified member • Nov 14, 2024
I was also raised to respect others and to “be kind” (whatever that meant). Deep within me, though, lurked a very dark animal with intense desires. It took me a very long time to be able to embrace that part of me, the part that enjoys degrading, humiliating, and treating my submissive like a pet, an object. But, there’s also the caring, protecting, and nurturing side I have as well. I guess what I’m saying is you need to discover who you are and then see if it’s compatible with your partner’s needs.
It takes a lot of open and honest communication, both with yourself and you partner about who each of you are and what you want out of the dynamic…I think she is wrong if she wants to be “hands off” and expects you to come into your own without her input. When I first started this journey, I was terrified of “experienced” s types, but even now, no matter the experience level of either of us, I need that open and honest communication. I need her input and feedback…that’s what makes for a great dynamic.
One more thing, it’s also worth noting that you may not be the type of Dominant she wants or needs. While I do have some “Daddy” type characteristics, I would be a horrible Dominant for a Dd/lg type dynamic. Know who you are, know your boundaries…be open and honest. Good luck. Damn, I didn’t mean to write a book…🤦🏻‍♂️🤪
Sincorrigible​(sub female)
2 weeks ago • Nov 14, 2024
Sincorrigible​(sub female) • Nov 14, 2024
Bunnie wrote:
My question is, if she’s so highly experienced, why is she making you feel inadequate?

Comparison does not help anyone’s confidence.
If she wants to walk this path with you, in my opinion, she needs to humble herself a bit and remove this contest of “who knows more.”
She has had past experiences. So what? That means nothing when it comes to what needs to be created between the two of you for it to become authentically and uniquely yours. And to me, a “highly experienced” submissive would know this. We don’t carry our past training into a new dynamic… we start from scratch, basing ourselves around learning to align with our new Dominant. This isn’t about “build a Dom 101.”



I often agree with all you say, Bunnie, but I have insight into this situation, and it is different to what you say here.

I've been there many times. Entering a relationship /dynamic/new 'thing' with someone who isn't experienced. Or as experienced as me. I don't think we do leave our past behind. I think it all comes with us. And it really depends on what the two people in question have going on between them, what that chemistry and connection is. (regardless of experience in fact)

Whilst I applaud the OP, and it sounds fabulous, their attitude and desire to learn, and that they genuinely want to connect to their other half, I'm not sure we know enough about the two sides to know how to help. Other than to point to external resources, make learning suggestions, as many others have done here. I have certainly been the 'experienced submissive' in this scenario and felt frustrated and at a loss to know how to help the man in question. I believe one can seek guidance on certain things, but if you don't have an inherent dominant latency within, you can't create it.

Again, I don't feel I know anywhere near enough about the op situation to comment directly on the post. But, as a submissive, being willing to try, and put in that effort, does not (from my experience) always work.