Rants,Ravs&Words

Asteria​(neither female) - It is not only an issue in the UK. Different countries have different legal systems and pretty often legal rules are not clear enough or not easy to interprete. In accordance with the applicable in particular countries legal regulations, sometimes even the consent might mean basically nothing when it comes to some more extreme BDSM play.

MasterIvan​(sadist male) - As a UK resident I only really know about the legal classification from a UK if you have any information regarding laws from other countries could you please pass the information on..I'd be interested in reading more

Asteria​(neither female) - Well, yes, I could, but it will take me some time if I want to do it properly (and I want).

The problem is that many legal rules are not adjusted to real life. Ridiculous example (not related to BDSM) - if you kiss someone in public in UAE you might be arrested. Does that mean that I would not kiss my partner while being there on vacation, for example? Nope. But it means that we would have to be smart, careful and trust him.

TakenLower - My goodness, I read this post as something totally different than these comments. I feel like in this case it has nothing to do with trust. If there were an accident, something totally unrelated. Sub has to be taken to the hospital suddenly, has bruises and so on...what happens to the Dom? Is he questioned? Is he arrested? The point is, I think, that there is always a risk. When you lay a blanket limi like nothing illegal, maybe you should have a more detailed version in mind too.

Asteria​(neither female) - In this case it has - at least for me - nothing to do with trust. If something unexpected happens and sub has to be taken to the hospital and some question will appear, then according to some legal rules her consent and mutual agreement between her and Dominant might be very little of help.

TakenLower - Limits are hard for me. I had to be very careful about thinking those things out because I am the type that just doesn’t say no, doesn’t safe word, I don’t think anymore. It makes finding a partner daunting, and keeping a partner from losing his own humanity also difficult. Such a fine line. I can say that anything that would hinder living life in the manner in which I was previously accustomed to would be pushing too far for me.

TakenLower - In a perfect world all judges would be capable of being fully objective and cold, fact based only. I feel like if I go to someone and say “cut my hair” and I don’t like how that hair is cut, they still deserve a tip and full payment. Same with uh cutting off other things? You are responsible for yourself first, putting yourself in another’s hands is your butchers bill to pay in the end.

Asteria​(neither female) - Unfortunately the world is not perfect (that would be too boring I guess). And there is way too many circumstances that have to be taken into account (mental health, was there any pressure put on that person etc, etc).

MasterIvan​(sadist male) - knife play is something I do and have done on a regular basis for years. Because I engage in a potentially harmful play there are precisions nothing is fail safe but...having a basic understanding of anatomy, keeping a first aid box near by a telephone with the emergency services number on hand and an understanding that if something goes wrong I'm going to find my self in prison cell helps to limit the potential risk. don't use sharp edges keep the Point away from skin don't cut...knife play for me is a sensual form of play.

MasterIvan​(sadist male) - off topic I know but from a legal perspective it's good to know where I don't stand

Asteria​(neither female) - And this understanding, awareness that something might go wrong, and not even because of your actions, is essential.
It is not about restraining oneself from certain kinds of play, but being aware of risk and providing reasonable actions that will minimize it.

TakenLower - Yes, I’ve experienced knife play in that way. It isn’t about the cutting so much as the reaction you get. I’m quite sure that look in the eyes, that quickened pulse, fast breath, and maybe even a tear does more than enough for you.

Dumbledore​(dom male) - To contribute to this thread, there is a Belgian movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1289432/ about this very subject. The summary there is very poor, but essentially the story is about a judge and his wife. The wife is a masochist but has never shared that and as a result gets alienated from her husband (the judge). In the movie she comes to the point where she does express her feelings and it gets to the point where the judge - very grudgingly - becomes sadistic towards her (not the best example of a functional BDSM relationship for sure, but well, you have to give him points for doing this because he loves her, irregardless of how he feels about it personally).

Their BDSM relationship is discovered by a prosecutor and they are brought to court over it. As BDSM was (and mostly still is) illegal in Belgium, her bruises and other marks are taken as a sign of abuse. In the movie the judge loses his job over it (even though he does not go to jail).

Yes, this is a movie, but it is based on a true story that happened in Belgium in 1997. As I'm a Dominant and a sadist (though not extreme I think), I thought about these issues quite a bit. That only makes sense as I would be the one ending up in jail potentially. I don't think there is a good answer on it at the moment though; yes, you can try to protect yourself with contracts and anything else, but in the end, the law is the law and no contract can legally justify abuse. So to a certain extent, there is no good or sufficient answer that removes all risk. Unfortunately.

That being said, I have a very nice contract with my submissive. Not that it will do me any good in court, but it was a nice touch in our starting relationship. And it was fun.

(PS: the movie is in Dutch, and I don't think it's very good, so even with subtitles I don't think there's much point in watching it. But ... de gustibus etc...)

MasterIvan​(sadist male) - sadly BDSM contracts are not legaly binding documents. I don't personally know if they could be used as part of a defence...if anyone does have any information regarding contracts and court please do share.

Asteria​(neither female) - No, those contracts are not legally binding documents per se for many reasons. They may have some influence on potential proceedings at law (for example shorter sentence), but then again, it depends on particular country.

Asteria​(neither female) - To be more specific, let's make an example - in such contract submissive may agree on being raped by her Dominant; but their relationship might be a long term and they engage in this particular "play" after like couple of years after creating mentioned contract. What happens then? Again, please keep in mind that all of this varies depending on legal systems in different countries. Usually rape has to be reported to be a subject of criminal proceeding, but let's assume that it was reported. The outcome might be that the consent given years or months in advance is null and void, simply because in most legal systems such consent should be given before particular sexual act happens.

Asteria​(neither female) - Of course all of this sounds rather... harsh and I know very well that it is impossible to think about that every time you would like to play, but it is good to be aware of such things. The most important is mutual trust, communication and responsibility.

Dumbledore​(dom male) - Hm, so now I have to make you sign a document _every time_ I rape you? That's going to be very time-consuming :P

Asteria​(neither female) - Who said it is going to be easy? ;)