Confused. S/M

Taramafor(sub male)

3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020

Been reading that article a bit. Read about halfway. Skim read the second half. Stopped at that point. One thing this article seems to overlook is how it fails to mention how one event can lead to the next (from what I read). Example: How X bad event can end up resulting in Y good event resulting in a net positive gain/outcome. Which in turn can change "bad" to "good" as a result.

Got a lot to contribute. But I'm sure it'll be informative. This is going to be its own article.

The article basically states even psychologists don't know about D/s and S/M in general. So I'd take anything it states with a grain of salt. They clearly lack experience when it comes to BDSM (let's be honest. They're stumbling in the dark). The "clever wording" circumvents admitting that (which is what's bothering me the most. That they didn't specifically state it beyond an implication or two). Few interesting things in it though. I'm finding it a bit of a "mixed bag". I'm detecting some flawed statements (and quite possibly false ones). I'll base my post mainly on covering what the article states. And a few additions of my own for comparison. I found the quote about love and pain particularly interesting (and accurate). What can I say. Life is pain. Love is pain. But it doesn't have to be all bad. Nor is it all good. You get BOTH. The article linked is focusing too much on one OR the other. Not both. And how they can swap from being one to the other. In a word "Change". "Flux." They're psychologists and don't even mention this or control before halfway through an article? Concerning.

It genially concerns me professionals that should know, don't. There seriously needs to be more BDSM focused psychologists with experience. Mental illness my ass. The implication that BDSM and S/M was even considered as a mental illness was particularly concerning. Same crap used to be said about gay people. If they say they don't know then they don't know enough to know one way or the other. By this logic it shouldn't even implied to be a mental illness, let alone considered one. What's making people mentally ill is being seen the worst of and being misunderstood. Getting that out of the way first. It's like saying "Sex is for reproduction". Nope. It's for physical (or/and mental/emotional) pleasure. "Having a baby" is the purpose of reproduction. See how there's a difference? There's also a difference between "Hard ass slap" and "Sticking a knife in". And even there there's a difference between "Doing it to yourself" and "To someone else". All depending on why. The reason. the intent or/and desire to do so. Which is where incentive factors in. Of which is normally intimacy.

I genially think people that consider S/M as a mental illness are afraid of people being only destructive with S/M due to people that self harm. THOSE people are letting their fear consume them, and thus I consider them mentally ill because of this. Due to fixating on only the worst and being close minded (eg: fear consumes them in unhealthy ways, which is destructive). That goes for both the people self harming for unhealthy and destructive reasons AND the people with a single narrow viewpoint that S/M is ONLY about that (due to not controlling their fear and closed minds). Someone that self harms is a masochist. They seek out pain. However, they may not enjoy it. But it's sought out nonetheless which is the other criteria for masochism (You can EITHER seek out OR enjoy pain itself to be a masochist. It's often both but not always). Obviously self harming is often unhealthy. And only ONE type of masochist. O-N-E. And often has more to do with self loathing and lack of self worth or/and wherever someone believes they deserve to suffer in BAD ways (which can STILL be preferable to, you know, doing nothing and going insane). Which likely stems from a source of guilt. But that is completely different then someone that ENJOYS pain where intimacy can be involved/established with control and change of behaviour for the better. In case it isn't obvious I'm saying S/M itself ISN'T a mental illness. If anything it's a way to cope (but does not have to be). More importantly I've also stated why. It's your control and choice. You have your reasons for seeking pain. What hurts can ALSO heal and vice versa. Everyone has their reasons for this. Just make sure you know your reasons. Otherwise you can risk being that unhealthy self harmer who fears the worse of themselves or/and the world fixating on the negatives. A very SMALL part of what S/M is. And one you don't have to be a part of at all be to be into pain.

Here's the thing. What people lose sight of is that the bad can ALSO be good. Or that the good can ALSO be bad. Additionally one can turn into the other. Instantly. Back and forth. constantly and consistently. It's all dependent on what you (and they) do. And what you think even. Each moment can change. For better or/and for worse. Each and every second. This is important to keep in mind in many events, but with S/M and D/s it's key. But in order to understand that you first have to look OUTSIDE of BDSM. And S/M. If even the professionals are confused (as the above linked article practically states) then start backtracking. What is the appeal in the FIRST place? What brought you to this situation where you enjoy things or otherwise feel the need to seek something out? You might have found "ass spank". Now what else?

There's many many reasons for why people are into things like pain and force and so on. Even without consent with no choice given to you. You might THINK that's the worst thing that can happen, but I assure you, it's not. You can still have a choice even in that situation. Limited ones perhaps but a choice nonetheless. There can be many many varied situations for why a situation like that can be enjoyed. But the core basic reason people enjoy pain (and fear. And other events) is actually a very simple one. Reasons beyond that but let's focus on the "simple roots" before going any further.

It's because we make them happy. Even if they hurt us. Yet even when they hurt us we can still be happy. Perhaps BECAUSE they hurt us (or you hurt each other. etc). It's baffling how this is so easily overlooked in the linked article. Although the comment about pain and love did BRIEFLY touch on it. But only briefly. Like it was a highlight or a footnote. I can do better then those psychologists. I'm about to prove it.

It's a matter of choice and our own control. Again, not stated in the linked article. It mentioned powerplay BEFORE control. Concerning. The key factor to mental stability (as well as making fun happen) is control. Any article covering BDSM should be stating control first and foremost. it's crucial outside of BDSM, let alone in it. To be in control. To control yourself. To control events around you. How people let themselves be controlled. Which can be good or bad, depending. This above all else is important to discuss in BDSM. And outside of it. Without it people can slit their throats. Blow their brains out. Jump off cliffs. Unless guided and given direction without their choices decided for them. So I'm very wary of any article that doesn't make control a priority topic when it mentions BDSM. Simply put, safety first. Or if not safety at least being aware of the danger you're in. Baring "accepted blindness".

Right. Safety talk done. Onto other events. Which also gets into danger and how it can be good and fun. Don't complain about how it can be avoided. Maybe you're not given a choice and the situation is decided for you. Often this is how pain becomes enjoyed. You just learn to adapt. And then make the best of things. Turn it into fun.

The other person can do something you don't like but it's "their action". Your response is the deciding factor. I say this again. Your RESPONSE is the deciding factor. How you respond/react to a situation. You'd be surprised how effective being playful can defuse life threatening and volatile situations (this works with suicidal people too). How being calm and expressing interest (or/and being flirty) can get you (and even them) out of a tight spot. But wait, maybe you don't know how to do that. How then does one gain this kind of ability/talent? to hurt each other and laugh and play so quickly or even at the same time? Well, I learned the hard way. And I knew no other way at the time. How did "This hurts in unhealthy ways" become "fun and healthy with control"?

We simply can't trust our own perception at times. We might need a few whacks, emotionally or/and physically before we get there. Or maybe we want to change a habit we have but need someone to do it with us. For us? Even if we tell ourselves otherwise as we're in denial and blind because of a closed mine or doubting the other person can change us for the better (and if you think that you ARE being close minded due to not considering the possibility). What is it they say about conflict? That it's "the spice of life?" Can try to avoid it. You can't. It WILL happen. You will hurt. They will hurt. You'll hurt each other. Close. Distant. Doesn't matter. You become closer through conflict and challenging. Understanding. So... may as well enjoy it when that happens, right? You know the pain is coming. Whatever type it is. Try to ENJOY it. Or despair. It's a simple choice. One often not even considered. BEFORE focusing on "playful and fun" first consider "How to make the best of the worst". The former tends to fall in place once the later is established. You walk before you run. You crawl before you walk. Sometimes you get lucky and don't know how. But knowing how is better. You can decide then. You have control then. A choice.

If there's one thing I learned about pain it's that when someone hates and hurts you, goes out of their way to make your life hell, they still care enough to FACE you. As opposed to tossing you aside altogether. Something a more "nice" person might do. They could toss you aside. Like you're garbage. Like you're nothing. Turn their back on you. But there you are. Amusing them. Toxic? Abusive? Sure. But "There" all the same. Now why is that? Crack a morbid joke. Do as told. Playing quickly. Suddenly being treated better. I ignited and sparked that. That one event changed everything. Changed them even.

And then the penny drops. it's turned into a game. Pushing each other to improve. Adapt. Enjoying it. It doesn't have to be bad and unhealthy. How did this happen though? BECAUSE of the pain. If not for the pain we wouldn't be in this moment right here right now. Pain can "linger" and be unhealthy, but it's not "pain" that causes that. It's "confusion". Not even knowing what you hurt each other over (Note: Being blind folded and confused about how you're being hurt can still be fun. But that's different). If you know what you're doing you can quickly involve better things as well. Before it was all out of control. Mainly negative. Yet with control what once hurt and caused trauma can now be pleasure. Just from a simple game. Playing in the worst of moments. At least that's how I learned to get into things myself. "Making the best from the worst". Next situation. The next. The next. MAKING things go well. MY reaction/response. Making it a game. "Playful and flirty." Even through pain. When it's controlled, when someone puts you on the spot and gives you direction you have a choice in that moment. One that may not be an option because you were never given it. I'm giving you that choice right now. "Respond positively or be negative." So enjoy yourself as much as you can. In EVERY situation. And get them too. Because the alternative can be "more pain" (can or can not be a good thing depending. Depends on what you "gain". Such as more intimacy for example) or worse, boredom and apathy. Pain can LEAD to pleasure. Or be combined with it. Which can further make pain itself pleasure. But there needs to be reason. Incentive. Drive. motivation. Intimacy, sex, affection and attention are good examples. Can always hurt yourself too, but fapping on your own gets lonely. As does stabbing yourself (be it for healthy or unhealthy reasons).

In very extreme situations when you're a victim, being amusing can lead to the best time of your life, or your destruction. It can keep you safe and alive while having fun or lead to your death. But it's all dependent on your response to a situation. Could having the ability to respond better factor into seeking pain to have that kind of ability in the interest of self preservation and making volatile situations safer and more entertaining on a subconscious or known level? Could having the desire to hurt others factor into ensuring they're more prepared for events like that? to know it hurts to have a wolfs jaws on your face yet know it's best not to flail which is why it calms down and can then potentially become an ally instead of taking your life? (same context applies with people, just without the jaws) I would think so. I would think knowing how to face someone that wants to hurt or even destroy you with a gun under your chin and knowing how to handle that situation to keep yourself self and have fun is very much a factor. And having that ability also means turning that into something else as well. Intimacy for one. Or if not that at least understanding each other and playing to their desires (which further fuels your own). You could do this with intent. Or life can be harsh and force you to learn the hard way.

With me I was forced to learn at first. But now it's second nature. There have been times I've stared down the barrels of guns. Faced armed people. There is a reason my hand was kissed after an argument. Mainly because they noticed how observant I am and suggested using it for self defence (as opposed to on yourself). this shows I have THEIR safety (can also be enjoyment/amusement as I squirm under threats and pain) in mind. It gives them a reason to care about me. When this is done in tense situation where pain can be inflicted it's only natural the people involved become closer, even if physical pain is employed (in a controlled manner). That didn't happen here but I do know of other situations where it does. I make them happy. They make me happy. Think of pain as that one irritating quirk a lover has. Yet it's missed and desired when gone. Only I didn't lose it. I simply adapted and learned to enjoy it. Provided I'm getting more the "just pain". Pain can make me good. I like being good. Controlled pain makes me calm. I like being calm. Pain can make me wiggle my butt. I like wiggling my butt. Pain can get me laid. I like getting laid. I'm not considering the "cons". I'm considering the "pros". I don't fixate on the negatives. I focus on the positives. Pain is more a means to an end for me, but I can enjoy it. It's because they care. It's for them as much as for me. when it does happen. When someone isn't afraid of hurting me. I don't fear being hurt. YOU fear hurting. NOT caring enough to hurt me is WHY you hurt me in bad ways. Consider that. And consider the trust when someone hurts you knowing it's a GOOD thing to do for you. People harping on about mental illness aren't considering that most likely. If they are then they can bloody well construct a better counter argument then "Because it is and one bad example which is unrelated".

Jack From Mass Effect 2 comes to mind. I'd call them a sadist. We've been talking about masochism so far. But that's only one side of the story. So let's cover sadism. She has trust issues. Been hurt through life. Wants help but claims otherwise and lets the player talk to them in the game. This might be a game but many people are like this in life. Heck, I was this person in life once. Eventually facing their past and finding closure. Certainty has every ability to be dom and fun, flaws aside. Being controlled all your life will make you wary. Uncaring. emotionless even. You really start to miss pain then. And pain itself doesn't have to be a bad thing. But feeling nothing? genuine apathy and lack of feeling/care and the inability to even say it because you genially just can't give a shit anymore? Yea, that's when you know you're in real trouble.

Again, you learn to make the best of it. Even here. Then enjoy it. When you been through something like that, when you've been used and controlled without a damn say, you respect control and choice above all else. Even if you force people into situations without consent you still won't, perhaps even can't decide for them. For it would be a dishonest lie. Honesty above all else. Even if you're a monster. Jack learned to enjoy the pain she inflicts on her enemies. Whereas I learned to enjoy receiving it. This also means she's very blunt and direct with her companions. Will hurt you because honesty. Doesn't make excuses and will admit what she is. Meanwhile a goody two shoes acting all good can be lying to your face and dealing with secrets and lies (so no wonder honest people want to tear them apart). It's statistically more likely people that "nice" will deal with lies and secrets. Simply put they often lie to your face and don't mean what they say. But someone that intentionally hurts you is less likely to do this. So honesty through pain is very much a factor as well. Making pain more attractive and desired. Simply because pain is honest. When it's not born from assumptions at least. Pain born from assumptions is unhealthy. Pain that is honest can be put towards a practical and constructive purpose. a POSITIVE purpose. Let's pick an example. Biting your arm to avoid lashing out at a computer game because you die over and over. Beats flipping a table over and destroying the monitor. Pain is a means of control. To help with remaining calm. It can also cause people to panic if the "dose" is wrong, when it's "too much" or "not enough" (personally I say always aim for pushing harder with me). but finding the "formula" is what it's all about. For X situation. To get Y event to happen. The difference between an antidote and a poison is the dose. An antidote is also only effective when poisoned. So too can intimacy be more effective with pain and fear. Provided the other person knows what they're doing. Either they'll experiment to find out or you inform them. One or the other if not both. Finding out is often part of the fun for many.

This isn't just BDSM. It's life. How then can psychologists state they don't understand BDSM when none BDSM events have already made it apparent? The only real difference is that BDSM deals with controlling events more. Except there's a lot of people in BDSM that don't know how to control situations properly. BDSM is supposed to be about control but how many people don't even have a clue? Too many. "How to tie someone up and enjoy a spank" isn't knowing control in depth. "What I feel like" isn't control and can blind you to what is logical. Little wonder then the psychologists don't know. People that do know are more rare and may not even move in BDSM circles at all. Too focused on living life being happy with whoever they're with. Simply knowing control without a care for the rest of the world because they're that good they found happiness in their own world. They won't be asked to be in a survey (well, they can, but good luck even finding them let alone getting them too). Which is why any survey is flawed. Not having all the facts is not an excuse to assume and make bold statements that can be proven false easily if you think it through. People seek out pain throughout history, it has been consented too BEFORE Victorian times (the article states otherwise). People also seek what comes with it. Glory. Honer. Treasure. Be it items or people. People love fighting. Sparring. Gladiator arenas. That's going beyond pain. But still involves "pain and gain". weighing out pros and cons. Why tension and conflict may be a thrill. Fighting for a fathers acceptance. Fighting because it's what you know and it's how you bond even when opposed. This is how pain is learned to be enjoyed. The blood pumps. Adrenaline flows. Lovers quarrel. And fight. Then fuck and make up. Or maybe fighting is HOW they fuck. Most certainty happening through all of time. Most certainty more likely to happen when you're so used to being close and physical in older times. Just from the habit of getting up close and personal alone.

If you go back, way way way back to medieval times, there are priests flogging themselves as they "submit to god". Stating this as an atheist but hey, it's a thing they did. To not only "submit" but also "hurt for god". So the statement about pain only being consented too recently is also inaccurate. We also don't know how many people throughout history sought pain out. Most of them weren't asked. The survey is making assumptions without evidence on that account. Pain has been sought out for a long long time throughout history. Both in healthy ways and destructive ways. With control and without. The difference of a "control freak" and "self control". May as well ask why people lead or follow at all. You don't have to know BDSM to have the answers there. Know leading and following and you know BDSM (the core fundamentals at least). Know direction and control. This is what defines if a situation is healthy and positive or unhealthy and negative. There are times you HAVE to deal with the unhealthy to get to the healthy. But what is the END result and net gain? Hell, there are times it might even be necessary to go through insanity to be mentally stable. And that can even be done in fun ways. Don't have to be on your own and left in the dark.

Why do so many poor leaders exist and the good ones that can hurt you get you to perform better? It's because they care more often then not. Enough to HURT you. Not not coddle you. They PUSH you. Past what you find comfortable, but not enough to break you (ideally at least). To get results. For you. For them. For the team. Pain is effective at times. Especially when it leads to truth, additional incentive or alteration of behaviour. Which you'd have to let happen even if directed (it's less consent and more if that specific approach/mix of things works or not). Why do you enjoy that buttspank? For the same reason you might enjoy crawling through mud and climbing that fence on the obstetrical course. Because it's there. Because you enjoy doing it. Because you enjoy how it leads to the next event. Knowing it can hurt yet knowing it leads to something "more". That might seem like a lot of context to put behind a buttspank. But why is someone spanking your butt in the first place? What does it represent? Affection? Being used? Love? Being bent over and sexually toyed with as you tease back as you make each other happy? Pick any one of those. It's all leading somewhere else, even when enjoying (or learning to enjoy) the current moment. You're often just not thinking about it because you got your head up the clouds in lust.

Let's consider something as simple and basic as leadership. Everyone should be able to work with something as basic as that. BDSM if nothing else is about leading and following. Direct and be directed. S/M if nothing else is receiving pain and giving it. So to answer what the article is confused about we simply have to examine leadership itself.

Few take up the responsibility. Play the game "squad". A team based FPS game (quite an immersive one too. Teamplay and slower pacing is crucial). People worry about taking that leadership role. Because they're afraid of letting the team down. You have a lot to do. A lot of orders to give. A lot of tactics to employ on the field. All while talking to the commander and other squad leaders as you keep your own team together and focused. Something I'm good at when I set my mind to it, but wow, just look at the amount of stuff you have to focus on already. Haven't eve touched on helicopter crashes gone wrong with survivors yet. Black hawk down situations happen too. Painful at times. But blazes is it fun. People playing WANT the pain. Because it's all in good fun. Why then should it be any different just because things get physical with people around you? It's still "fun pain". Enjoying it. Inflicting and receiving. But you don't receive JUST pain. You're also receiving attention from others. What their reactions/responses are. How you react/respond can determine if you next get hurt or sexually fondled. Or both. Can even make that happen in games completely by accident too. There was this one time a dead body was on top of a dying player I was reviving as I healed them as it was seemingly humping... It amused me. It was a fubar moment taking fire from all direction while fearing for my simulated life but I was amused. Pixels. Physical. Games. Life. Violence and pain. Yet with entertainment and laughter or/and affection. At the very least attention. The variety of such things is astonishing. The environments it can happen in are endless. The number of ways you can enjoy pain when combined with other things are staggering. Jokes. Intimacy. To ensure good behaviour. To get to fucking faster with motivation. So on and so forth. Don't pick "one flavor". Explore it all.

But let's touch back on leading. A leader will have to risk putting the squad in harms way. Yet people desire and seek out a leader. Even if they can't handle the responsibility of leading. Perhaps a good part of the reason for why people enjoy BDSM then has to do with fear and facing it. In both leading and following alike. Especially when following, for they are more likely to be the ones that are afraid. So why not with pain too? You WILL hurt the squads feelings at times. That is something you WILL have to deal with. When things get intense sometimes it can lead to even fighting physically (people in general that is. Not the squad). But you don't have to see the worst of each other when that happens. Heck, this ties in with sparring now. That sport with the wooden swords. Or rapiers. it's fighting. You whack each other. Take jabs at each other. Not BDSM but there's similar enough events there. You can hurt each other with control and it's all in good fun. Or a means to an end to get a task done. Making you useful and getting you to enjoy yourself. One or the other or some combination of the two. Without pain other incentive loses it's appeal. What do you earn? What do you suffer for? With pain incentive becomes more important. Rewards to endure. Simple enough logic. But pain itself (or fear. Or whatever else) can become more attractive and appealing if it leads to other events as well (like sex/intimacy). This in turn turns pain (and fear) into something more "attractive". And therefor sought out. Remember, I talked about FPS games. People play them for a reason, Knowing they'll get shot at and even die in them. But people enjoy it. Being a brat and getting put in line physically with pain being received can be that challenge. What can you "get away with" before your "breaking point" is discovered? How much will you discover between those events as more is done to you? How can intimacy AND pain combined keep you well behaved? That's a lot like how loot and enemies work in games. The "mix". The combination. The balance. You don't get more buttslaps by just lying there and being boring. You got to display some kind of interaction/response. Wiggle that ass? Or playful insults? Perhaps even inviting more pain as a challenge? Ever been in a online roleplay where acid has been poured into your mouth through an affectionate kiss? I work around a permanent melted face with slow regen abilities (to only then be under threat of being melted again. More imaginary pain if you think about it).

I could go on, but basically there's a loooooot of variety in a looooot of environments/situations. And you can mix in a loooot of other things. Sexual and none sexual alike. Vampire gloves will only affect surface area (gloves with small spikes). Guess you could do other harmful things while having a normal buttplug in throughout the day. Further combine pain with pleasure. Spitballing a few things you could try. "buttplug with spikes" would probably just makes the ass less pleasurable. But a spiked chained (spikes being on the inside) around the waist or some kind of collar that digs into the skin while other events are happening with the pain reminding you of your place/status? Could be worth considering. Think about it. That pain is reminding you of something in that situation.

Back to safety.

When we ourselves are "put in line" it can result in being calmer. MUCH calmer if the right approach is taken (and everyone will require their own approach). You flail like a loon you just hurt yourself MORE. Pain and fear alike can teach you to be calm when you need to be. When it's not just playful. Or even get you to learn how to turn volatile and tense situations around when things are much more serious. Yet perhaps through knowing how to control those situations you make flirting and intimate moments happen quickly. Having that ability and talent not only keeps you safe but also others and can even keep people alive. So having that kind of ability/talent can definitely be a reason why it's sought out. If you really know what you're doing you can do this even when someone threatens your life. Snap. Suddenly getting laid and having fun together. I'm in bed with you instead of being murdered. You want a good time. I want a good time. I might shake in my boots but we're having a good time. Pretty sure my dad pulled that off once too. Would explain where I picked up the talent from. Either way consider being that good. To turn "in danger" into "Having a fun time". Instantly. And you're sure as hell going to suffer when someone is that tense or/and threatening but you can get it to be controlled.

The quote about love and pain was particularly interesting. It's actually reminding me of someone I'm recently working things out with (nothing lie the above. But some things that happened make me wish it was the above). And to answer the question it asked about why people hurt us, that's simple. The truth can hurt. People often lie to themselves. Think they know what they want. And I give it to them. Always. Then they hurt more. Knowing the pain that was inflicted was bad, knowing they did it, knowing they caused it. We all want to change for the better don't we? Even those that think they deserve the worst. BDSM goes a long way to changing our negative and positive traits. Be it removing bad ones or gaining happiness. Which comes back to control.

Whatever way you look at it it comes back to control. bend over., Wiggle a butt. Get it spanked. You're presenting the option if nothing else.

Hypnotist(dom male)	Hypnotist(dom male) 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 Hypnotist(dom male) • Oct 26, 2020 Embrace your masochistic tendencies. Experiment with them. Build on them. It sounds like your partner didn't spank you as much as you would have liked. Push your limits, test yourself, be proud of how far you are able to go, and most of all enjoy the pain/pleasure.

SAXMANIAC(sub female)	SAXMANIAC(sub female) 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 SAXMANIAC(sub female) • Oct 26, 2020 Well now I'm confused. What is masochism if not the ability to derive pleasure from pain?

Bunnie	Bunnie 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 Bunnie • Oct 26, 2020 I just came across this article (hopefully the link works). I’m unsure as to what kind of information you’re seeking, however from what I’ve glanced so far, this seems like an interesting read... https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2020.1767025

Holisticwoman	Holisticwoman 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 3 years ago • Oct 26, 2020 Holisticwoman • Oct 26, 2020 Thank you @Bunnie for the article. It worked for me I felt it was very informative for me. Thank you everyone for your replies I seem to have a bit better understanding now.