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Gender identity ideology

Jashine
2 years ago • Feb 23, 2022
Jashine • Feb 23, 2022
Update 2: the more I read Helen Joyce's book 'Trans', the more I realise it's not about trans people at all (despite the title) but about gender identity activists. Joyce has some interesting things to say on the ascendance of self-ID:

"[Self-ID] could not have happened without the internet, not just because social media enabled its spread, but also because many people now spend more time in virtual worlds than the real one. Someone who rarely engages with nature or exerts themselves physically will be predisposed towards body-denialism. And if you spend a lot of time playing computer games, you will have become accustomed to identifying with avatars who can be altered on a whim."

On trans people she writes:

"...many of those who feel driven to transition are anything but body-denialist: they are painfully aware that their bodies cause them grief, and desperate to accommodate themselves to those bodies. They are among the people most ill-served by an ideology that pretends bodies are inconsequential and easily changed...'

Her argument here is then, in essence, that self-ID is inimical to genuinely trans people. She mentions that gender identity activists even consider the term 'transition' to be transphobic, which is strange as I thought gender identity activism and trans rights were closely allied. They are not. Food for thought! I really recommend this book as it is very clearly written.
PrinceMatcha​(sub trans man)
2 years ago • Feb 23, 2022
A lot of my life, I felt off. It was only until this year that I realized I was transgender. I have a vagina, and boobs. But I consider myself a man in terms of gender. Gender identity does not have to line up with sex
I'mME
2 years ago • Aug 14, 2022
I'mME • Aug 14, 2022
MMK wrote:
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviors and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other.” (World Health Organization)

In today’s world gender identity*, and by extension gender expression** are more than the definition set forth by the World Health Organization, for example an individual can be non-binary, gender fluid, gender queer, transgender, agender, women, man, intersex etc. (this list is not exhaustive, merely a snapshot). Gender ideology and its discussion is extremely important at the moment given how the historical understandings and expressions of gender have changed dramatically over the last decade or so. This discussion is one applicable across the board whether one conforms to and expresses the stereotypical characteristics of women/men, chooses to present themselves as a hybrid or is reflective of neither.

What I believe the OP was asking is if other individuals have chosen to make visible their gender identity and in so doing did, they find they had to be highly overt, be it visually or verbally for instance in how they informed the world at large and what were the consequences of this. Was it a positive, freeing experience, where their authentic gender identity was accepted and welcomed or one fraught with even more challenges, whereby in making known their authentic gender identity did it place them at a greater risk of harm. As the OP has now stated he is intersex and has the right to ask and discuss these questions as it directly affects him and how he chooses to disclose his gender identity within contemporary society. To be honest I believe the discussion of gender identity is not the reserve of the transgender or intersex communities but is applicable to all. I can say as a woman within the current melee that is gender identity ideology it is equally valid for me to ask these questions, as the labeling, identification and use of female terms such as woman/women has become challenging over the last decade also. Because I am a woman does not make the questioning or expression of my gender identity in a wider context less than that of others.

What this thread and the answers given has shown is that when the topic of gender identity is broached factions of the transgender community and their allies shut it down, branding anyone who disagrees or challenges a transphobe or transphobic. I agree defending and protecting an individual’s right to be who they wish is important, what one cannot do is silence and dismiss other perspectives at will, for simply not agreeing. What these advantageous individual’s miss is that they do not have the monopoly on being the only ones having to navigate and deal with negative repercussions of identifying as anything but the expected male/female. The threat of violence against intersex people, in some countries is present from birth where a baby will not make it to the following day. In countries with strict religious rules etc. governing females, identifying as a woman can lead at best to a beating or whipping at worst to death. Homosexuals and lesbians depending on where they are born and what culture they are born into significantly increases the risk of death and/or violence, if known.

The only way for the world to come to permit an individual the freedom to express without fear their authentic gender identity is to allow open, honest and educational discourses to occur, where the resulting position is one I hope, I may not agree with how you define yourself, but I will fight tooth and nail for the right for you to express it how you wish, and support you in so doing.

*Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others. (www.npr.org)
**Gender expression is how a person presents gender outwardly, through behaviour, clothing, voice or other perceived characteristics. Society identifies these cues as masculine or feminine, although what is considered masculine or feminine changes over time and varies by culture. (www.npr.org)


I have not read all the posts, but I wanted to stop and say your posts is a rendering of what is in my head but could not get my words down on paper so to speak.
Great comment.
I'mME
2 years ago • Aug 14, 2022
I'mME • Aug 14, 2022
LadySusweca wrote:
As a transgender woman I'm not sure what to say about this discussion. Understanding where I have been and where I am going is probably not for people who don't understand the journey to decide. Even in the trans community the journeys are different. Caitlyn Jenner probably has no clue what it means to be turned away for jobs that you are qualified for but can't get because of ignorance. We don't get on the cover of Vogue just because we came out, instead I got disowned by my mother. To understand what it means to be beaten by skinheads and have teeth knocked out is not something I wish on anyone, but it's not something I will ever forget anytime soon.

Maybe the discussion doesn't need to be about "gender identity ideology", but about listening to transgender and intersex people talk about the journey to be where they are at today.


I have a question. Do you a trans women want to stand with all women? Or do you as a trans woman want to be a separate group?
Lazuli
2 years ago • Aug 14, 2022
Lazuli • Aug 14, 2022
Western cultures decided at some point to identify only man and woman. Several Indigenous groups in Canada and the US also have always identified a Two-Spirit classification as well. So...in other words ...to assume gender identify and biology aren't coinciding is ... Oversimplification and damaging (although perhaps unintentionally). Western Science and Medical studies have consistently and almost exclusively operated on a male vs female standpoint....and frankly often ignored the female component entirely anyways. So in other words ... An entire body of medical Science and study has SOLELY looked at male presenting subjects. That's changing ...slowly....thank jeebus.

I’m completely biased, and I want to fully disclose. As an indigenous person I feel like we “historically” set one of the best examples when dealing with gender identity. Just wanting elaborate further into two-spirit, of which I am not but want to always be a support. Our cultures place very little emphasis on strictly regulated gender identity. By that I mean that in the cultural sense we are just not very concerned with genitalia. Cultural research that varies greatly (thousands of tribes, break down into hundreds of thousands of clans, and so on), indicates various degrees of acceptance to even reverence for two spirit people. And while there certainly always existed some gender roles, I feel like the over basis to say that “we” respected a “woman” who could take up a spear and the “warriors” who could nurture. And there are even documentations of those who fluidly moved between all variants of roles rooted in gender, presenting as whichever they felt. There’s even evidence that demonstrates this openness or I like to think of it as “higher self” mentality diminishes with colonial contact and is specifically targeted by religious leaders. With colonization we see the adoption of manner biases that simply were of little importance to indigenous peoples. Whether they were higher thinking or simply to practical to allow such things to segregate them, not sure but I err on the side of thinking, “Ancestors were wise.”
And even for those people loosing their shit about bathrooms and dressing rooms…again, highly sexualized colonizers introduced “modesty” a burden of women as an answer to male sexual aggression brought on by the church which emphasizes shame and fear that inflicts a gender control.
For those fragiles who are already slipping into monkey brain and are about to beat their chest, I’m not saying men are bad. I’m just saying that Indigenous culture had more gender equality and that without that church programmed patriarchal mindset the relationship was less about control and sexual superiority and based more in what the individual contribution was to the community. Anyway, now we see a lot more biases, less acceptance, and even more violence towards two spirit people and it’s no coincidence that comes from assimilation. Movement’s towards traditional values are doing a decent job in the Indigenous community of advocacy for a return to acceptance and validation. I think that’s something we lack overall and it transcends culture, the valuation we have for people and where that comes from? Our basic problem today is that we don’t really give a shit about anyone unless we can fuck em.
LadySusweca​(dom trans woman)
2 years ago • Aug 24, 2022
"I have a question. Do you a trans women want to stand with all women? Or do you as a trans woman want to be a separate group?"

I see myself as a person with thoughts, hopes, and dreams, but I don't usually get treated like even that by some people. To them I am just a fetish as a trans woman without them even knowing anything about me or I get treated worse than a pet dog by people who want to believe that I made a "choice" in being a trans woman.

Why would I want to be treated as a separate group? I get that already by some people seeing me as only an object instead of a woman. Women get treated like that also by some of the "doms" on this site so there may not be much difference anyways.

If anything treating everyone like a person and giving them some respect is what we should be doing here. We are all equal and it doesn't matter if we are dominant, submissive, cis, or trans.
Sasa​(dom female)
2 years ago • Aug 24, 2022
Sasa​(dom female) • Aug 24, 2022
In my country, we have a strange relationship with new things and as always it is going to be extreme. We started to have a "new language" and the pupils of all genders and I mean all, are slowly annoyed. I am just observing and not judging anything. I simply hope it is normalized after a few years. What I have seen far too often is that there is always a counter-movement. It will take time, but so what it will change. Watch out for haters like Andrew Tate. He is the hero of many young boys if we understand that or not. Gladly he is now banned from IG and other platforms.
We can't survive as separated groups. That doesn't work. It is a slow process. Until now I see people feel forced into something they don't want or understand. In my country are far too many companies reacting to shitstorms and protests. I guess other countries have that too with religions
Notely
2 years ago • Aug 24, 2022
Notely • Aug 24, 2022
I have seen some use she/they/them/he they put it all together It works for some. LBQTQ wry supported these days love is love ♥️💙💛🖤💚🧡🤍🤎💖✌️🫶. Just let people be. I know in this life can be complicated that you may feel different not from here are souls are incarnated so in your live you lived live you may remember you still have a feeling all those still part of you this life when leave soul goes with you. I learned some this before Doreen virtue changed from the book realm of earth angels because I don’t fit in myself not everyone gets us but those that understand us do. I know this may not be for all take what you feel this just my understanding. I remember my past lives being in the Angelic realm well in soul now just cherub half star seed we all are something just figuring out what is. We carry the feminine with masculine energy in all of us at times I feel I have to be the man and women in my life. My ex liked to do drag he still was a man but he liked to do this before he meet me this Ciro 2007 was more underground only some whet supported he quit do his family judgement I feel people should do whet they like as long not hurting or forcing anyone. I might be straight that was experience bit really my thing but have friends many backgrounds of LGBTQIA’s. With my ex was experience just I don’t think I could ever do again I’m only attracted to guy’s but I love art all gonna be. We live and grow and create.
Notely
2 years ago • Aug 24, 2022
Notely • Aug 24, 2022
We are the artist we paint are life with all the art comes with. P.S I don’t really have religion Just in to the universe. But what I have learned all the symbols in religion all together in round circle we are all in one time my life finally understand early 20s studying energy healing to be Master Teacher one of Teachers enlighten me I wanted to learn more. In meditation you don’t need to know certain tone you can zone out just forget about everything go to place feels like home it will bring you to your center space. Ok my eyes I see though the soul The colors universe in someone eyes. I had rid get rid of the old belief and judgment but some things we have right to say no and yes if not for us but allow others to embrace but not force it on you try to listen even it may not agree but way you may not understand in yours. I ask the universe for everything now with the angels and nature. We have feeling we just can’t allow mind to get trigger we don’t have to be in to everything just say that not me but you can go along that’s your art we are all different in are own world. ✌️ This what feel this the identity In everything from this song ciro 1988 Enigma - Return To Innocence Love
Devotion
Feeling
Emotion
Don't be afraid to be weak
Don't be too proud to be strong
Just look into your heart my friend
That will be the return to yourself
The return to innocence
The return to innocence
And if you want, then start to laugh
If you must, then start to cry
Be yourself don't hide
Just believe in destiny

Don't care what people say
Just follow your own way
Don't give up and use the chance
To return to innocence
That's not the beginning of the end
That's the return to yourself
The return to innocence
That's return to innocence. I play this song every day https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2rALVgdoMHk Each day new day starts the sun rises we need the sun to keep going begin again to recharge. 🙌🫶.
simplylaura​(sub female){djinni}
2 years ago • Aug 24, 2022
@LadySusweca, thank you for providing emotional labor, despite ignorant questions. Trans women are women, just like short, butch, femme, right handed women are women. It's not a binary. You can be both a woman AND trans.

Re: LGBTQ+ folks having it very good and being accepted... Ask people (like me) who are having to rush to schedule a marriage before October because it's likely the Supreme Court will overturn federal marriage right. And queer and trans kids who are not being allowed to fully express themselves in school anymore or read about queer families. Things are better than 20 years ago but way worse than 5 years ago. Queer and trans people have been opened up for more harassment in the last 6 months than in a long time. Please don't minimize the struggles of a significant portion of the kink community.