Submissive in principle but not in practice - how to adjust her thinking

Submissive in principle but not in practice - how to adjust

SirYesSir​(dom male) • Aug 3, 2020

I am interested in outside opinion vs. my situation...

We are both relatively new to the lifestyle but /sub (she) has issues from her childhood. Compensated for it by rebelling at 13 or 14 & happily bossing around everyone, especially the men, in her life... until I came along. I quietly but persistently stood up to her "attitude" & insisted it was unacceptable. She would play hard-to-get but generally yielded. After a 3 or 4 years, I collared her, which she proudly wears & will tell anyone who asks that she is mine ... but she also frequently "forgets" her role & reverts to a disrespectful, sarcastic, bossy tone of voice... Flat refuses some of my "requests," more of less at random due to her mood. I stop & insist we talk & she agrees to almost everything...Even negotiated & signed a D/s contract a couple of weeks ago... but she is sooooo stubborn that she just can't /won't bring herself to fully submit. She started violating the contract within an hour signing it.

I really like /love this girl & chosen to take the persistent patience route. I have the strength & power to easily inflict almost any punishment I chose, but to me that would be a hollow victory. I want a full mental & emotional submission... not one where I have flog or paddle or otherwise in order to obtain or maintain her final & complete submission. (I have inflicted pain on her & pretty much know how to cross her threshold of real pain as opposed to stimulating. Instead I remind her fairly constantly what I want, what she agreed to & how our situation does not match those behaviors & expectations. I think of it as strength of will.

I am coming to the conclusion that her path to submission & obedience with her may never be completed. I want /need /demand control & obedience. I will accept nothing less & am willing to move on in order to find it. I communicate my expectations constantly ... one day she agrees & says she is ready... the next day, it's like that discussion never took place.

I want this to work. I have so much time & energy invested here, I am reluctant to walk away... However, it may be the best option for both of us ....since neither of us is getting what we truly want. Part of me says life is short, why settle for less than what you want... but another part of me says just keep at it... her behavior will start to match what she says she wants to give me... soon? .... eventually? ... but maybe never.

DrWakko • Aug 3, 2020

Maybe its not her but you. I read a lot of "I demand" and I "expect" in this. Submission is something that is earned. It is not something that someone can just turn on a light switch and become submissive. Maybe you need to back off and let her develop her submission on her own and not try to force, demand or put pressure on her to submit. When you pressure her to be a submissive she pushes back on you.

Maybe she also enjoys the collar, but she isn't a submissive. Maybe you aren't reinforcing her submission. You expect her to do something, but do you reward her for doing it? Do you let her know you are proud of her? Maybe she feels like you are using her.

I have a lot of dynamic books on my blog. You might want to take a look and read a few (both of you). You should also get involved in your local community and go to classes that focus on relationships. Look for groups like MAsT (Masters And slaves Together).

Good luck

DW

TheWhorelock​(dom male) • Aug 3, 2020

It seems to me like after this long, where she’s really at is pretty evident. She likes the drama of you telling her what to do and enforcing your ideas and all that jazz, but she doesn’t want to be submissive the way you want. Not in her heart of hearts, which nobody can change but her.

If she did, she would’ve done it by now.

Imho.

Bunnie • Aug 4, 2020

It sounds like you both need to have a very serious discussion. As in explaining that you’re close to calling it quits and seeing if you can work through that.

The Master I’m speaking with is a lot more gentle than what I’m used to and it’s very challenging for me to not take advantage of that. In a way, it requires me to take a lot more responsibility for myself as a submissive, which I have slowly been learning. But it has taken a lot of time and growth... and a damn lot of patience on his part... and we’re still nowhere near where we desire. Mostly because we are not within arms reach... I’ve no doubt that if he had access to me I would’ve had some pretty good beatings by now. But for me, in a lot of ways I need that physical punishment. It wipes the slate clean. I need to know very clearly when I have done wrong, and when I have done right... otherwise I just drift and begin to think that he doesn’t seem to care either way. In a lot of ways too though, in the beginning, a physical punishment was a cop out for me, because it was much easier to just take some physical pain rather than have to face all of my feelings and emotions and voice those and communicate. That is way more confronting.
I see some of this thinking on her part in what you describe.

I think mostly it’s really just a vulnerability thing... which takes time and trust. It sounds like you’ve got a long way to go still of building on your foundation of trust together.

SirsBabyDoll​(sub female){Pizza+☕} • Aug 4, 2020

You have had alot of great suggestions but have you thought to consider that maybe she is a Brat? She has a childhood history and that is what caused her to rebel. That tells me she is a wounded Brat. There submission looks differently than other submissions because it is not born out of desire, but out of childhood trauma.

I have written a blog series called "The Art Of The Brat" that is currently 10 chapters long. The first having been written in March. I have included the link to the first chapter below. If you read them, you may very well end up finding her with those chapters and by understanding how Brattism works, you will better understand WHY she does what she does and how best to EARN her submission.

I agree with Dr. Wakko. There was all "I" this and "I" expect" that....

https://thecage.co/blog/userblog.php?blog_id=68569&postid=31384

Aquarius Dom​(dom male) • Aug 4, 2020

You should both take time to write down all of your needs wants desires limits boundaries issues and opportunities etc promise each other brutal honesty !

See what’s changed , then refocus yourselves !

I suspect the time you have been together has allowed lax behaviours to become the norm, you don’t capture a runaway animal by running towards it , that just makes it a game !!

Zedland​(dom male) • Aug 4, 2020

Well there are several things I see. Leading with as other have suggested she just might be a brat. Like a strong-willed horse they are fun to ride but you will never stop fighting for control.

Secondly it seems your punishment system is entirely based on physical force. Not exactly the best system in my opinion, particularly if she enjoys some measure of pain.

And lastly I agree with Wakko in that you might want to back off. I am a fairly insightful and analytical man but I still have trouble knowing when I am subtly influencing a sub. Persistence combined with love bombing with strictures enforced by threats of physical harm? Yeah you can see why you might need to give her space to she if this is what she wants and not what she had been convinced she wants.

Edmond Dantes​(dom male) • Aug 4, 2020

I too am in a new relationship with a submissive who continually pushes back. So much so I have questioned if she is submissive at all. Surely she would want to submit to me if she is submissive?

She is a brat and has trauma in her past. I am learning that her submission needs to push back, that she needs me to provide a safe space for her to do so, and for me to assert control to calm those feelings. However hard that is!! It’s a process she needs to go through. The Dominant she needs me to be.

I must emphasise that I am still learning and what I say above scratches the surface only. It does sound like your submissive may also need that from you. Let her push back, push you. Control it with love, patience and firmness and she will be the submissive you need. Until she needs to push again of course, and on it goes.

I am learning this process is good for me too. Opening new doors and skills around what is possible between two people in a dynamic.

Sir Don​(dom male){Nt looking} • Aug 4, 2020

Hello,
I think every opinion above is great..
In my opinion , there is no doubt she is a brat !!!!! It sounds to me that you are demanding she acts in a certain way. She has to want to submit to you and it is your position to train her. She hides behind the brat, so maybe you might want to consider asking her what she wants. I think training on both sides is in order.
Now you say this has been going on for 3 or 4 years. She has had to much free rein, might be time to cut your loses. Because she doesn't respect you, You can demand but if she is constantly not listening then she is controlling your dynamic or attempting to.( my sub test 100% brat on the bdsm test). She is definitely pushing against you and testing you daily. Is that what you want?

DDFH

Re: Submissive in principle but not in practice - how to adj

tallslenderguy​(other male) • Aug 4, 2020

Fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing.

i'd like to preface my comments that they are not written with the assumption they are 'the' answer or even correct. Posts like yours, to me, are just a tiny snap shot of your life, which is a whole lot more complex, so i think it's impossible to give a holistic or conclusive answer. These are thoughts and feelings that your post evoked in me, they may fit, or not, or just to a degree. (trying to pre qualify tone).

i read what feels to me to be a contradiction in your response to your sub? You wrote:
" I really like /love this girl & chosen to take the persistent patience route...not one where I have flog or paddle or otherwise in order to obtain or maintain her final & complete submission... I have the strength & power to easily inflict almost any punishment I chose, but to me that would be a hollow victory."

To me, this reads as though she is a good living/life mate for you. i don't see life or living, or the D/s expression of life/living, as a one and done event, but an ongoing process. I.e., i do not see Dom or sub as place one achieves once and for all, but over and over. The first scenario (to me) is death, the second is living. From what you have written, it seems to me that you have experienced "full mental and emotional submission" with your sub on many/several occasions? i don't see that as a place one gets to and never moves from. To me, that would be a sort of 'death.' To me, that's sort of like saying: "i want to eat the ultimate meal and never have to prepare food and eat again." i think you realize and experience your Dominance in exercising it, if there is no resistance, where is the exercise?
What i am suggesting here is a reversal in your thinking. Your mate tests your Dominance, to me it seems she is testing your endurance. Bluntly put, if you "walk away," who has dominated who? Again, this is just one thought, i know there is a lot to relationship.

If you stick with 'the exercise', maybe you will grow and develop new muscles as a Dom? i had a similar thought/response as DrWakko who wrote: "Maybe you aren't reinforcing her submission. You expect her to do something, but do you reward her for doing it? Do you let her know you are proud of her? Maybe she feels like you are using her. "

Additionally to what DrWakko suggests, i wonder if her expressions of stubbornness/rebellion are not a regressed state for her? That something in your process is taking her back to a/the place in her life (13 or 14 by your account?) where she developed the coping mechanism of "bossing around everyone, especially the men."

i can trace my submissive nature way back, even to kindergarten. i had crushes on boys who, in retrospect, had equally unrecognized, immature and undeveloped dom natures. The way it typically went was like many a childhood crush: boy likes girl, doesn't know how to express it, so he hits her lol. wtf. i attracted bullies like a magnet as a kid. my intuitive survival response was to bury my submissive nature. i also became a martial artist. To this day, even though i have come to understand a lot of the why's and wherefores of how and who i am, if someone bullies or trys to force me to do something, they hit a wall. That literally shuts me down in an intimate situation. A Dom is likely to get back kicked into the next century if he tries to use physical force with me. From what i have been able to determine, that's because certain behaviors (meanness, bullying, force) trigger or regress me. As an adult, i have a lot more sophisticates response than i did as a child, but there is child mixed in.

Back to what DrWakko wrote. Some of the most profound experiences of dominance i have expereinced have been with Guys who took a 'coaching,' encouraging approach. It has to be real for me, role play doesn't cut it. i've written about an experience where a Guy evoked the deepest and most complete submission i have ever experienced by "persistently" encouraging and then reinforcing the behavior He wanted by telling me how proud He was of me. i go into detail in some other posts, but the effect was profound and real.

If your sub is similarly being triggered and/or regressed , maybe a new or different response to her when she is in that state will achieve Dominance? Maybe your current approach is reinforcing or triggering rebellion?