Obedience

Obedience

Bunnie • Jun 29, 2021

Can obedience be learned/taught?
Or is it an innate characteristic that one either has or doesn’t have?
Or is the innate characteristic the *desire* to be obedient? And can that be learned/taught?

Thoughts?

DrWakko • Jun 29, 2021

Yes anyone can learn, but only the passionate and motivated will succeed.

You can teach anyone to write a sentence. Some will write a book, but only a few have the passion and have the motivation to write a great book.

Aquilla{ • • •. [} • Jun 29, 2021

Obedience is a personality trait. Similar to agreeableness.
With a lot of work over a long period of time, combined with a genuine desire to make a change some progress can be made.
Yes I think it can be learned, but I don't think it can really be taught.

SageFlame​(sub female) • Jun 29, 2021

Bunny - this topic is awesome sauce!

Obedience
Where does it begin?

My thoughts are centered on the biology of the brain. The control center responds to the environment to keep us alive. The Limbic System is constructed to connect memory with survival. Survival depends on attachment. This meaning any attachment - parent, partner, community etc. This is why there is a strong pull to be accepted or acceptable. When we are not acceptable to others we react not only because it hurts emotionally but our instinct to survive is being fired up. Which leads me to compliance. It is fairly simple to train a person to obey as long as you are aware of what motivates them.

Does training create obedience?

Behavior modification is often mistaken for obedience. You can teach a dog, horse, or person to modify their behavior simply because of the nature of the brain. Fear of consequences creates compliance and modified behavior.

Does fear create desire?

Sit on that question a minute. Without Bunny specifying, I am assuming because of location and her role that the context of D/s comes into play here. In my experience as a submissive there is a distinction between compliance and yielding. I enter the dynamic with a strong desire to yield. A desire that was awakened by dominance. This desire radiates without prompting. It is my natural way of showing care, compassion, respect and sensual affection. I experienced this without any training. Before I knew anything about D/s I was ready. It just took someone who understood dominance to awaken this. ( why I have this desire can be another discussion)

What motivates compliance or obedience?

Ah! thank you for asking. Based on my experience compliance requires no desire but can be accomplished with training to modify behavior. An example would be compliance with traffic laws. I don't want a ticket so I obey traffic laws. This action is motivated by fear. Not only fear of parting with my hard earned cash but my brain is wired to need acceptance so this is socially motivated as well. It is purely subconscious.

Submission can be attained without desire, respect or affection. This is accomplished with cold training, often with the manipulative behavior of inciting a trauma bond. *cough 'red flag" *cough. There is more than one way to cook an egg and more than one way to acquire submission.

Another good question is what kind of submission is desirable?

acquiesced​(sub male) • Jun 29, 2021

Then there is Pavlov's Dog, which based on my own experience is also strong in the (human) male brain and responsible for production of Dopamine and other chemicals.

House Talion​(dom male) • Jun 29, 2021

It can be taught in many ways, but is so much easier with TPE

ObsidianOx​(dom male) • Jun 30, 2021

Obedience brings victory, and victory is life.

To quote DrWakko "Yes anyone can learn, but only the passionate and motivated will succeed.”

Beautiful…

Sun Kitten​(sub female) • Jun 30, 2021

This is a great question...it gets the juices flowing.
I have a complicated relationship with obedience. I grew up in a strict Mormon household, so I've experienced the toxic, brainwashed obedience. I am a very free spirited person, and I left that religion when I left home. But I'm also very primally submissive. So I crave being in a relationship where I have someone who I trust to lead, who I can obey. I haven't found that. I've experienced glimpses of it.
Obedience can be *trained* - but true obedience, the joyful kind, is intrinsic. It grows out of the right kind of healthy, supportive, two-way relationship. I'm saying this very confidently for someone who hasn't experienced that - I just know that's what is out there.

Tessallia​(sub male) • Jun 30, 2021

[quote="ObsidianOx"]Obedience brings victory, and victory is life./quote]

I'd say that obedience actually brings cohesion within groups and that can lead to victory. that said, in unhealthy situation where obedience is demanded at all cost it only leads to bad things. For me it's become a point of internal conflict on that vein of thought. The disagreeable trait survived to this day because it's also tied to survival, and often despite the short term discomfort of disagreement it leads to long term benefits. I've had a few people in my life who refused to negotiate, and demand that things be
their way. Agreement there would have only been tryanny and everyone loses there.

I'm usually a pretty disagreeable person to be completely honest, and it's been to my benefit many times. That said, I can't shake that want to serve someone, and let someone else be in control. For people I'm close to, and trust, I'm just about always willing to help out. and if it's not obvious thats a lot of why this lifestyle is of such interest to me. Because I don't dislike that side of myself, and I want it to be a part of my life, but it has to be with someone who I can share that kind of trust with.

sorry if i brought the mood down, I just wanted to say that even while i agree that obedience in these dynamics is a bueatiful thing, that idea needs to be tempered with caution.

Miki​(masochist female) • Jun 30, 2021

I have trouble with long replies (as exhibited numerous times throughout this thread-- no offense to the Wall of Text posters)

...so I might be posting something that has already been said...

But here goes, Folks!

IMHO obedience-- the willingness to submit and obey the edicts of another can't be taught. it has to be in you.

Now of course it can be "refined" as to what is "obedience" and what is "desperate ass-kissing"..

So if one has the innate desire and willingness to be a serving partner, proper research, consultation and good old fashioned honest communication between "you" and the partner who enjoys being served -- the level of expectations and limits for the purposes of a functional D/s dynamic-- can lead to a very healthy and successful relationship.

But I cannot emphasize enough:

Communicate what you want. What you WANT to do.. What you want to have DONE to you.. What you are WILLING to do in return ...and finally, What you're hoping for in the Long Run...

The ability to do this is Priceless.