Safewords...

Anyone worth their salt would tell you that online protection does nothing and irl protection would only go so far as the reputation of the Dom doing the protection. I've found most ppl dont see the difference between a protector and a mentor.

As for the use of safe words is concerned, that is based on what the sub and Dom agree on of which is best for them and their relationship. The opinions of other should be expressed with the respectful understanding that they, no matter how long theyve been in the lifestyle, have no say of how others conduct relationships.

Agreed.

I just read the op and I am a bit lost for words, but I will have ago.

Don't do scenes. Not sure how anyone can have a Ds relationship, or do any bdsm without there being scenes of some sort, scenes are after all a cover all descriptor word for playtime. I guess there is no playtime then.

So you punish to punish. Well you do that by consent, and only by that and any sub can withdraw their consent to accepting a punishment, at any time. They have that right and can do so by saying I don't agree to this I withdraw my consent or use a safe word to withdraw halt that consent. The way I read what you wrote seems to indicate that you feel a sub can not step out of a punishment. Well yes they can, the power exchange only exists as long as the sub says it does and being frank ending the relationship if they don't agree to taking your punishment is so fucked up as to be abusive. Yes abusive. To say I have the right to punish you, and you have no right to halt or disagree and if you do I can end the relationship is, in my view an abuse. Some will take what they don't agree to, in order to not loose the relationship, though why they would stay in such a 'so called relationship' is beyond me. In my view that's abuse.

I read this sort of stuff often, and hear it in person as well, and its a screwed up fantasy version of bdsm, Ds, Ms whatever the relationship type. Consent is the foundation upon which everything is based and those on the higher side of the dynamic only get to do what they do, by the say so of the person on the lower end, they always have the power to halt things, always. Consent is fluid and can change, be withdrawn at any time, that yes is not etched in stone for all time. Anyone says differently, well in my opinion either they really don't understand what this wonderful dance is that Wwe do, or they believe bdsm is about giving them their way and only their way, and that is not what most consider bdsm to be about, because its not. Also there are many who use bdsm as a guise, way to abuse, and often do so by painting a 'serving their screwed up views' concept of bdsm, under which to allow them to get away with abusing by calling it bdsm. Any model of bdsm whatever the type or style which does not allow fluctuating consent, renegotiation and safe word use is in my view a false, dangerous one.

Anyway I agree with Redbotmgirl, I see flags, red ones.

I really love a Canadian comedian by the name of Norm MacDonald, the man is quite hilarious!
So he had this comedic bit when he was on Conan 's show (I think). he had this joke where he told Conan that he had gotten into S&M, he then told Conan that people into that kind of thing had "safe words" in order to tell your partner that things are too painful, and Conan said that yes, he had heard of that, and that he heard that the word RED was a safe word, to which Norm replied, yes but that's not the safe word I use when things get too painful.
Conan then said alright, what's your safe word?
Norm MacDonald replied in a long drawn out BOOOORRINGGGG!
I laughed so hard I nearly fell out of my chair!

I think the overall sentiment that each dynamic is different and taking into account of individual needs makes sense to me. I do use safewords when it makes my submissive sweetie feel like it provides them a sense of security. I do not think a one size fits all approach works very well in the world of D/s. I do prefer the red, yellow, and green light approach as I like to know if I am getting close to a place she would prefer not to go. It allows me the freedom to push and be aware I am getting close to that place I may need to stop or take a different approach. I think it is important especially when playing with someone new or a newbie. My style is to go slow and learn what my subbie seems to enjoy, need, desire, and want as we play and especially when introducing new things. I have even established a 30 day no rule at times with new subbies where they can say no to something during our first 30 days without any problems. In those situations, which rarely occur actually, it gives us a chance to discuss it and see what the hesitation is and if there are ways to work around it.

Ok, let's dive in.



No. Perhaps I simply have a different notion of what is meant by the word "scene". To me "scene" implies an act, a fantasy, an element of a play. Not normal day-to-day life.



Of course. You said you read the OP? Then you must have read this: "Quite frankly, the girl can say: "Stop" anytime, she doesn't in anyway have to conform to nor accept the correction, or punishment. She has that power. She always has that power."



Wow. Well, in that case, you completely misunderstood. Seriously? How did you come away with the notion that somehow, I believe that "stop" doesn't mean "stop" from what I originally posted? "Stop" means STOP. "No" means NO. When I say I don't use safewords, I simply mean that I use normal English to mean what it's supposed to mean, rather than attaching an unrelated meaning to an arbitrary word. Maybe that's just semantics. <shrug> To me, using artificial words to represent a disconnected concept introduces an element of fantasy that is simply unwanted. This is not abusive in the slightest. Which brings us to...



Wow again. You apparently missed the point of ending one paragraph and beginning another, ramming the two disconnected concepts together in your post above.

Just to clarify: "Ultimately, the only real punishment I can inflict is to end the relationship, to remove myself from her life. Well, let's face it, if things are going that badly, perhaps the girl might perceive this as a reward." What I'm saying here is that this is the only thing that I can do that does NOT require her consent. And, do read that second sentence. This would only happen if things are going so badly that the relationship is falling apart anyway, not just because she didn't want a spanking. Nowhere in my OP did I say that if she doesn't consent I'd end the relationship. And, ya, that would be abusive. "Petty", and "childish" are other words I would use to describe such. Ending a relationship when issues cannot be resolved together is actually beneficial, not abusive.

I'm talking about the dynamics of a long-term, well-established committed relationship here, where everything has been explicitly and implicitly discussed and agreed to, over a long period of time, (years, not weeks). One where the two people just know each other so well, that there is no need for artifice. I'm not talking about a relationship that's just starting out.

Moving on to Redbotmgirl's comment:


Again, context is everything. I've been talking about my relationship with my wife. a woman I've known for 20 years. This was our reality. I could see where what you've said here would be valid, but not in this case, because it's a well-established relationship. Quite frankly, she wasn't interested in scenes, (as I've defined above), either. So, "stop", "no", "wait", etc., just plain English worked for us, as did reading each other's body language, facial expressions and other non-verbal means of communication made possible by the fact of the long-term relationship and intimate knowledge of each other.

Nor do I. Why is it that when I speak of my dynamics, my reality, my world-view, some people think I'm preaching to them about how THEY should be doing things? That's not what I'm saying *AT ALL* I suppose have I'll chalk that up to the inadequacies of relying solely on the written word.



Makes perfect sense. I haven't played with someone new for more than 12 years; neither of us was a newbie when we began.

EDIT - Forgive me but I fussed up the quotes so I am going back to add them manually

Skyrich -
"Conventional wisdom, (RACK, etc), states that all BDSM activities should first be negotiated, understood, agreed to, and safewords, ("pineapples", "red", etc), should be in place. With all due deference to said conventions, I don't use safewords. Wait, take a breathe, keep reading.

I don't use safewords, because I don't do scenes. If I have a girl over my knees and I'm swatting her ass, it's usually because her attitude and/or values have been so reprehensible that an adjustment is required. I'll have her count the swats as she receives them. If she hesitates to count, I stop to have a conversation with her to determine whether she's reached a limit or a limitation. A safeword would only add an unwanted element of pretend or play to this dynamic. Quite frankly, the girl can say: "Stop" anytime, she doesn't in anyway have to conform to nor accept the correction, or punishment. She has that power. She always has that power."

-

I just cut the OP down to some of the things I wanted to comment on so I hope you don't feel as though I am taking you out of context Skyrich.

I can see why this is a touchy subject for both sides of the slash. Part of it seems like a discussion on semantics, I would argue that you do use Safewords, they’re just the conventional safewords. They all get the same job done which is really the important part, no matter what you want to call the words, whether it’s Pineapple, or Stop, as long as the message is received and respected it really doesn’t matter what you call it I don’t think.

--

Skyrich -
"Now, don't get me wrong. Safewords have their place. A friend of mine sent the following to her female friends:
"If you find yourself in an abusive situation during this lock-down, send me a message, asking me if I'm still selling my makeup. I'll know to keep checking up on you. if you specifically ask about my eyeliner, I'll call the authorities for you."

Likewise when meeting a dom for the first time in real life, a girl should have similar arrangements with her friends."

-

While this is as good practice I think, I don’t think this is the same kind of Safeword, always a good idea to let someone know where you are, I believe both myself and my kitten did this the first time we met.

--

Skyrich -
"Finally, yes, if you're into "scenes", where "stop", "don't", "no more", and the like are to interpreted as part of the act/game/scene, then by all means have a safeword."

-

I don’t think it’s the intent but the reason this post caught my eye is that to me it attempts to separate the words “stop”, and “No” from safewords but I feel like they’re all in the same catagory and fill the same purpose. If you want to use stop but your bottom wants to use ‘Mr. Rogers’ then you’ll have to come to a consensus or just not play together, and either outcome is really fine. Maybe it means more to one party than the other, which is just fine.

--
Skyrich -
"I don't use safewords, because I don't do scenes."

-

Gosh dang there’s a lot of different things wrapped into this post. “scenes” I suppose are whatever you define them as or whatever you want to call them. My kitten and I have a 24/7 live in relationship that spans multiple play types in any given day. We have DDlg time, D/s time, two working and tired adult time (though she’s always respectful), Rope time, Impact time, ‘play time’, and so on. . . We define a scene as something that has a beginning and an end. Sometimes that helps us do things as simply as refer to a specific play time. ‘the rope scene we did today’ or ‘the impact scene’ often times in one evening we will go through multiple scenes, it may start with rope, then she’ll crawl to the bedroom and wait in nadu while I affix whatever collar I’ve chosen, then if I feel like it we may do impact, then maybe aftercare followed by more sensual play. This is just an example but the idea is that a ‘scene’ is more of a concept than a strict definition and may vary between the two parties involved.

I personally think that the safeword has a very valuable place in both 24/7 scenes and more casual play. It can be for something as simple as tickling for example. I really enjoy tickling her, it’s not a fetish for me, I just enjoy her laugh and being a bit goofy. I also enjoy hanging her from chest harnesses for varied lengths of time. If she’s telling me ‘no stop tickling me’ while giggling that may not be an effective way to clearly communicate the message, but a safeword would do plenty fine there, then she could tell me her ribs are very painfully sore from the suspension we did earlier. It doesn’t have to be extreme (though of course it can be) it just needs to immediately get someones attention and stop the activity. There’s lots of reasons that ‘No’ or ‘Stop’ may not be great words to use at a time, so I would definitely consider keeping my mind open to having multiple options available to you and not closing your mind off to any one or another.

Yellow is a really good one I think and even if ‘red’ is not the safeword I will sometimes ask to use ‘yellow’ as a warning sign that something may not last long, or if continued may draw an end to the scene.

Really what I am getting at here is that there’s lots of good reasons to use unconventional safewords but I would encourage any body to keep their mind open and hesitate before drawing a line in-between ‘no’, ‘stop’, and unconventional safewords.

--

I continued on to read the rest of it and there is another quote which the phrasing made me cringe a bit, the same one that caught others attention

Skyrich -
"I find that open, honest communication makes the use of safewords unnecessary, and overly, well, fake or staged."

-

I think that the reason this statement is so controversial is that it seems to associate safe words with some negative connotations, or insinuate that if you are using them that you may not be communicating openly and honestly enough. It would be kind of like saying something offensive to a large group of people and then just saying ‘it’s just my opinion’. I’m not hating or shaking my finger but those are some of the things that came up when I read it and realized it rubbed me the wrong way.

All in all I hope everyone feels comfortable using whatever words they need to in order to feel safe, I think everyone in this thread shares that same intent / desire

-JB

@JohnBond



Not at all. As you can see I do the same. I trust that you understand that I'm not taking you out of context either.



Yes, the message is the important thing, no matter if the medium is a normal and usual word, a safeword, snapping fingers to morse code, or simply using a normal word, but in a different language. What's important is that both parties understand the message loud and clear.



Actually that was the point. That they're all in the same category. That "no" and "stop" mean exactly that.



I don't disagree at all. Simply put, in nearly 4 decades of living this lifestyle in a 24/7 live-in, long-term relationships, this just hasn't ever been an issue for me, nor for my girls. We've simply never had a disagreement on this subject.



As to the latter, no I don't believe that using safewords implies a lack of honest and open communication. As to the former, it's been my experience, that using an artificial word injects an element of fantasy that is unwanted. Having said that...



Now, that is an excellent point. And, I do like to tickle for much the same reasons you've given. I may laugh at the ridiculousness of the situation, but "no" to me always means "no". Just because I'm laughing, doesn't mean I don't stop.



Oh, I do have multiple options. For example, there are many non-verbal means of communicating, and I always had those options available for my girls, especially if I'm using a gag. As we both said, the message is the important thing, not the medium.



Agreed. I don't mean to state, nor to imply that my way is the "Right Way(tm)", and if you're not doing it my way, you're wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all.

--Rich