Are slaves also subs?

Jashine • Dec 3, 2021

Speaking as a slave – I’ve been one for two years now – I thought it might help to add to this conversation.

I was a submissive to my partner for the three years prior to becoming a slave. During those years our knowledge of each other deepened. I say this because, as dollMaker rightly notes, you can’t just enter into an M/s dynamic casually. In fact, as he says, it’s something to stay away from until you know someone really well.

What put me off becoming a slave initially was the inaccurate idea that M/s dynamics are 24/7. I had got this idea into my head until I heard the wisest writers and teachers about BDSM speak on this topic. They reassured me that M/s dynamics don’t have to be 24/7 at all, for the very simple reason that most of us find it impractical to be someone’s slave all hours of the day and night. (In my case I have a significant life outside BDSM.) Having heard these writers and teachers speak, the floodgates opened for me.

When I first mooted to my partner the idea of becoming a slave – for I felt it in the depths of my being – it took her several months to think about what was involved and whether it was for her. She initially had reservations about the responsibility involved, while at the same time knowing that her needs as a Domme were not quite being met. It was difficult to put a finger on why, until her realisation that she could have what she wanted, when and how she wanted it, would be best achieved by my being a slave. In practice being a slave starts for me when my collar goes on, and lasts through play and broader spectrum requirements until it comes off.

My main observation about the difference between being a submissive and a slave is that the former is transactional while the latter is devotional. It’s not, for me, a question of black-and-white ideas of ‘having no rights’ or of being ‘property’. In addition being a slave requires a high degree of initiative which being a submissive does not. I find myself disagreeing with the idea that M/s is different from D/s merely by degree, as IronWorld sees it: rather, I find the difference to be at the fundamental level where devotion, not transaction, is involved, and where my Mistress does not feel that she is servicing ME. There is an odd power paradox in D/s where the submissive seems, and sometimes is, the one in control. This is not the case in M/s, ever, which makes my Mistress and me very happy.

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Dec 3, 2021

slavejashine "My main observation about the difference between being a submissive and a slave is that the former is transactional while the latter is devotional. It’s not, for me, a question of black-and-white ideas of ‘having no rights’ or of being ‘property. In addition, being a slave requires a high degree of initiative which being a submissive does not"
...

There is never a win or lose in these discussions only different views. What gets on my nerves most, however, are blanket statements that put either sub or slave into a specific/better box.

Slvejashine I've been a submissive for more than two decades. My relationships always evolve into the MS depth you describe and while I don't call it Ms, I am his slave. It is just not fair or accurate for you or anyone to make statements like that in your last sentence.

The people entering into this dynamic. The people choosing these terms and designations can only co-create what falls into the parameters of their bubble. Please take care not to rank and file others based on what you have done for two to five years. In truth, there are far fewer slaves or subs and many more using the terms in ways that don't relate to me and possibly not even you. Because they don't know us.

I try to avoid these types of threads because when it comes to what Ms folk thinks about Ds folk and vice versa, I've heard every version of convenient skew. So many toss out these assumptions about how subs control, only submit in the bedroom, always have a vote and a voice. How they choose what happens and when. That they can just walk away at a whim. And now you say subs don't have a high degree of initiative.

Never do I hear about a sub's devotion, loyalty, evolution, initiative (yes that too) or sacrifice. Never do I hear the sub with a slave heart who will do anything, and deny him nothing.

It makes better reading the way you and others say it. But it is still unfair and false.

Until such time as we are able to skim off the heavy thick surface of those who pretend, (not saying you do), have never met or so much as shared a cup of coffee with their partner, and create stories to elevate themselves as (insert the title) we will never really be able to have a deep discussion about this, but merely only be able to say "in my experience and my opinion". And that is ok too.

However, every time someone rolls up and informs me about what I bring as a submissive to the power exchange (and there is always a little disparaging dig in there) well, it just pisses me off.

In the last ten years, I've seen a real boon in random personality terms suddenly becoming Ds or Ms concepts. A traditionalist at heart, I have issues with this. However, if two or more people pick a term I cannot relate to and make it about MS or DS then really? It is none of my business and I am not better than they (again you didn't say that) just because I am more traditional. And they are not better than I am just because they have created the ultimate slave world.

There ARE indeed concrete terms to these concepts and they are far more complex than some of the stuff said here today, specifically by IronWorld.

The difference between sub or slave, or Master or Dominant? May well be something we will never be able to define or agree on. Each side with its own strong and definable foundation but not with one set of behaviors that all will agree on.

H*

Spellbound Wytch{Mr. Parker} • Dec 3, 2021

This is a prime example of that which I mentioned earlier - those who show barely concealed disdain for anyone who's not "putting as much effort" into this kinky thing as we "slaves" do. The remark isn't even subtle as it's clearly dismissive of those who have "less skin in the game." I'm with you in the end, SubtleHush in that I always regret joining conversations like these as they drag on and more and more fuel gets added to the fire.

shahh • Dec 3, 2021

Who are you trying to kid? You LOVE adding fuel to the fire. Which is fine...but at least own it.

shahh • Dec 3, 2021

Exactly. This is a massive time constraint that several ignore. Slave doesn't need to be 24/7. And there is an absolute different for some between slave and sub. I really enjoy the devotional argument you make.

Obviously everyone can tailor their dynamic to what works best for the both of them. And if that 'obviously' statement rubs anyone the wrong way...they can suck my strap on...because every D/s M/s whatever dynamic is personal. Jash was very clear about saying things were from the perspective of a specific relationship...so blanket statement interpretation are your issue.

Spellbound Wytch{Mr. Parker} • Dec 3, 2021

Shit. Sorry you got yourself all triggered up there.

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Dec 3, 2021

shahh (to WytchyWoman) " Who are you trying to kid? You LOVE adding fuel to the fire. Which is fine...but at least own it."

(Trees don't grow until the old ones that no longer serve are burned to the ground. Those seed pods don't open until the fire is hot enough. I'm sure Wytchy and I will disagree on many things and I'm good with that. But I like her fire. I like fire issued forth from anyone offended by the dime-store, just add boiling water, Twue way bullshit that is so common here. Trumped only but the misogynistic rhetoric so many small-brained men sell here as if calling themselves Dom means jack shit to anyone. I guess I have a little fire myself.)
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shahh "Obviously everyone can tailor their dynamic to what works best for the both of them. (Totally agree. Best of both means everything.)
...
"And if that 'obviously' statement rubs anyone the wrong way...they can suck my strap on... " (Neither you nor your strap on mean anything to me. But people disagreeing does mean something to you or you wouldn't have said it.)
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"because every D/s M/s whatever dynamic is personal. Jash was very clear about saying things were from the perspective of a specific relationship..."
(It's all very personal and fluid and can change daily. Those who pin everything they are on that not happening don't normally do well when change comes. And it always does.)
...
"so blanket statement interpretation are your issue."

(No it isn't at all. I'm sorry for anyone who believes that or acts based on what they interpret. However, when poorly written, or lazy, vague questions are written here, well now, that is a problem all its own. If you can't be bothered to write understandably don't bitch later that we all missed the point. )

(The real point to adding fuel to the fire or starting a new one has nothing to do with that super slave or anyone else who has any experience. There is a broad gap between ymmv and us not agreeing. That is life. That is online and even personal chat. Grown-ups deal with disagreement. When I fire my jets it is because there is this swarm of inexperienced people who think writing well and being correct are synonymous. )
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Let me take off my pearls and petticoats for a sec and lay this out in real terms. MANY more are here fishing for newbies who know nothing so that they can perpetuate off that inexperience and convince someone that they have to be this or that.

That there are no innate qualities to being a sub or bottom or simply curious. That the nirvana of this lifestyle is being super slave. For the record, the most impressive and accomplished hard-core slaves I have known for years would laugh at that heartily and call it BS because... it is.

We suffer from a chronic kinky case of "The King's new clothes" where one jerk acts in a certain way and no one can or will say they are wrong. Or dare I say it? Tell them they are naked to the world in the ugliest of ways.

I will do that. Not because I am always right but because, while I will help anyone of any gender- I believe in the sisterhood and if women would just support each other, and not rush to help greedy men hurt other women, many ills of the world would be much harder to achieve.

And if I have to be fucking bitch or be accused of derailing a thread to do that where some asshate is selling useless or dangerous ideas to someone who genuinely doesn't know the truth? Happy to fire that bitch up and if Wytchy wants to add fuel, good with me.

I'm not going to be here too much longer. I know some can't wait for that lol.

It's a good site as sites go, but damn you, people. You can only blame COVID so long before you step off your computer or out of the hidden bubble your relationship lives in and see what the real world of this is about. Until you do, you never will really know this realm and the amazing, life-changing beauty of it.

This sermon is ended. Go in peace. (Or piss off. Your choice.)

H

Spellbound Wytch{Mr. Parker} • Dec 3, 2021

And there is yet *another* hard truth you've just introduced. Those who come to these forums and blogs choose the roles they WANT the rest of us to see and are overjoyed that they have 100% control as to how they portray themselves. The least effective "leader" gets to announce that he or she is a super dom/me and the most disagreeable of harridans gets to play the doe eyed and long suffering submissive/slave. Yay! It's all in good fun and the rest of us aren't supposed to have the gall to mention the scam being openly perpetrated by a select group here (and really EVERYWHERE online). I trust the one who wants its strap on sucked will find some satisfaction sometime soon. It won't be with me, though.

Jashine • Dec 3, 2021

I thought it would be helpful to add my two cents on being a slave – which most people commenting on this thread are not – and on the difference between being a slave and a submissive as I have experienced it. It ought to be obvious that my observations were from my own experience and not intended as blanket statements. If you take them as blanket statements you must be a bonehead. My writing was clear.

Spellbound Wytch{Mr. Parker} • Dec 3, 2021

You were VERY clear in announcing that submissives deal in "transactional" exchanges whereas only *slaves* are behaving from pure devotion.