Manipulation

IODiCeShOt • May 17, 2020

It’s a really good question.

I don’t care for manipulation either way, I think it’s extremely damaging for any relationship.

We all strive to feel desired and loved in what ever way that works within any given dynamic. Our fantasies and needs are both an expression of our urges and something to be shared and enjoyed with likeminded people or preferably for me “one person”. I don’t see why there needs to be manipulation to achieve that goal. If there is it’s an extremely empty and one sided scenario and that’s only going one way.

All that said there’s likely subconscious manipulation at times in new communications and relationships where people are just trying to determine quickly if they potentially fit or are forcing for clarity if the other is holding back....if it’s conscious in the moment though it’s a no for me.

rosethorn​(sub female) • May 17, 2020

See from my perspective and based off the definition provided i would say its manipulation but of the situation rather than the person as informed concent is involved.
For example
You best hold the door open tonight or there will be trouble later .... and this is a, something agreed and b, you both know what the problem later would be
.... then me 'forgetting....oops'
Is essentially me giving consent for the trouble later
That can't really happen without agreed manipulation of the situation again in terms of the definition provided.

Do i agree with manipulative under hand tactics no... and thats why later on it would be checked that i did that intentionally.... can usually tell by me going oops at the time in all honesty.

So i can see how that would be manipulation of the situation but gets the outcome both people want and concent too

Just my point of view.

Thing is manipulation is often used in a very different type of control.... which i don't agree with. But I've found being aware of that possibility helps reduce it too.
Xxxx

tallslenderguy​(other male) • May 18, 2020

Hi gang, i'm back among the living.
Dellydoodah back channeled me a link that i think does a good job parsing this topic out more. This particular writer makes a distinction between manipulation and influence, here's an excerpt and the link she sent:


"The difference is really between “manipulation” and “persuasion.” Influence itself—which on a very basic level can be defined as the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, usually within the context of a specific goal—is neither positive nor negative.

It’s sort of like the physical law of gravity. Gravity in and of itself is neutral. It manifests itself as good when keeping us from floating aimlessly up into space. It manifests itself as bad when we fall off a seven-story building.

In this same way, influence is negative when one manipulates others simply for someone’s own selfish purposes. Influence is positive when one persuades others in order that both/all parties obtain the results they want. The major difference is in the intent.

Both manipulators and persuaders understand human nature, human motivation, what drives people to take action on certain ideas. But while manipulators will utilize that knowledge for their own ends only, persuaders will never do that.

The reason is that for persuaders to feel good about utilizing their influence they must know that not only does the other party also win... but that the other party also feels good about the situation."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rodgerdeanduncan/2018/12/21/influence-vs-manipulation-understand-the-difference/#4cceb206470c

rosethorn​(sub female) • May 18, 2020

Im curious as i have considered manipulation of the situation with consent. Maybe others don't consider consent can coincide with manipulation?

tallslenderguy​(other male) • May 18, 2020

The original definition of manipulation i pulled from the internet identifies that manipulation can have a negative or a neutral (maybe even positive) connotation, depending on context, But like others responding to this post, i have an almost visceral response to even the word "manipulation" and it's decidedly a negative one, despite cognitively understanding that "manipulation" can also apply to manipulation a lever or pushing a button. Where it gets tricky for me is when one 'pushes' and emotional 'button.'

Couple of examples:
First example:
i was in a ltr where i believe the person used manipulation as a rule. One thing this person would use was silence ('the silent treatment'). It would evoke an eventual emotional response of isolation where i would 'give in' in order to be able to reconnect. Of course, "giving in" didn't necessarily mean i was doing the right thing, i just wanted to be released from that sense of solitary confinement, so i'd capitulate. There were several such methods this person used over the years we were together and much (not all) of my insight is retrospective. It took me a long time, not so much to realize i was being manipulated, but to accept that it was happening. Even ten years after the relationship ended, i still think that much of the manipulation this person used was inadvertent. That the person didn't consciously manipulate, but that it was learned or conditioned behavior this person had from early on... their way of coping, living. i don't know this for sure, the only way to know would be if this person admitted "yeah, i knew i was manipulating you when i did that." When i confronted the person with the word "manipulation" while in the relationship, there was complete denial, the person even acted insulted that i should suggest such a thing. That kept me trapped for years in the relationship because i believed that person instead of my own instincts. i don't think what i experienced is unusual or unique. Having left that kind of dynamic, i see it all around me. i do believe that there is conscious and unconscious manipulation (the bad, damaging kind).

Second example;
i had a three day tryst a couple of years ago with a Dom who i connected with while on vacation in Palm Springs. There was no discussion of D/s, it just happened. i realized He was Dom more after the fact than during, but D/s was not something we discussed, we just experienced it together. i think the above cited article from Delly puts this in a more understandable context because it seems that the Dom used influence with me vs manipulation. i say "seems" because the end result was win/win, and i 'felt (quite) good' about it. Trying to be brief about a very complex interaction, i hope this is enough detail to convey what what happened?: retrospectively, i believe the Dom 'regressed?' me, finding a "boy" inside of me i didn't know was there and sort of collaring that part of me, by using a very positive approach. i.e. He got me to do something we both wanted, but in the way He wanted it, by 'coaching' me in a very positive way the whole time. Practically gushing "Good Boy!!" etc., when i would perform to His standard. i did feel a sort of manipulation going on, like He had found an emotional/psychological button in me that i didn't know i had, and was pushing it over and over... and i liked it. At the end of our interaction, my feeling for Him was adoration. It was profound, i cannot remember ever feeling that way with anyone else, and it's like He owns a piece of my heart to this day.

i can put this experience in the context of the above article and call it "influence." But i do not think the word "manipulation" is a mis-fit, rather it would be more of an example of manipulation that is not bad or negative? But manipulation because it wasn't something we discussed or i consented to prior. Maybe it's more like i was consenting as it was happening, in the moment?

my point is, there was a strong element of control on His part, and submission on my part. The first example i gave of manipulation left me wounded and hurt, the second left me nurtured and elated, but both seemed like forms of manipulation to me?

There is a part of my psychology that wants "grooming" (i don't think i'm unique in this, i think it is a fairly common part of D/s dynamic, though not universal). "Grooming" is another word attached to a type manipulation that has a negative connotation. But "grooming" can be different to me, maybe can be compared to the distinction made between manipulation and influence?

Dellydoodah​(neither female) • May 18, 2020

so 'topping' from the 'bottom' is that manipulation, persuasion, switching or?

tallslenderguy​(other male) • May 18, 2020

If i understand you, this is where i go with it too. There is a form of manipulation that evokes revulsion in me, and there is a form that evokes elation, but i can call both "manipulation" because the person has found a sort of psychological button in me that they can push (so to speak) to get a response. i have come to see that as a form of collaring. I.e., in the D/s dynamic there are emotional/psycholgical collaring places. The gray area for me (not saying it's bad because it's "gray," just not fully grasped) is there are ways i have felt manipulated in a positive way, but manipulated none the less because it's not something that was necessarily openly discussed and openly consented to. These "positive" instances are something i like, want. They almost have a magical quality to them because it's like the Dom has seen something in me that i didn't see, and He is bringing it out of me by "pushing that button."

tallslenderguy​(other male) • May 18, 2020

(laughing)

i know we need words to communicate this stuff, but it can be difficult to convey some of this stuff with just words because we don't all see or feel words the same way,

To me, the answer to your question would be: "it depends." i don't think there is one answer to that question because i think it would depend on the people, the situation. i'm not sure words are ever adequate because they are never the actual thing they try and relate.

Re: Manipulation

ThirtyFourPointFive • May 18, 2020

I try to be honest, I try to be nice also. I never intentionally hurt someone's feelings although I may do it without meaning to.

I am looking for one very specific person so I will sometimes manipulate for information, using that information to find out if the one I am talking to is the ONE I am looking for.

The only other time I manipulate is with consent and for the pleasure of the person I am interested in... G

rosethorn​(sub female) • May 18, 2020

@ tallslenderguy.
Yes i can understand where you are coming from. I find being aware of how that can turn into something else is important. It might be worth considering it persuasion or tge closest i have come to a pharse is mentally masochistic although emotionally might be better put. Thing is im aware of it and both people agree at the start if it shifts its either renegotiated or i walk. Consent is key. I also find there isn't really another way around it by that i mean for me expressing things or asking for help is really really hard i almost have to be pushed into it through mental chess but i find its nice when I can ask. Im just not used to being able to and it takes skills to get me to do that without breaking me. For example i found someone local to try and learn rope as friends.... i found it hard to learn it alone. After tieing one arm to the door frame and asking if it was tight enough but i could still feel everything. I remarked that even though I can feel it, it wouldn't stop me from intentional breaking it to get out of it if needed to..... such as being left there .....facepalm