Is it still a form of masochism?

Is it still a form of masochism?

Bunnie • Feb 18, 2021

What if *any* form of punishment is appealing, because it’s the concept of being *punished in and of itself* that is attractive?

Has anyone had experience with a submissive with this mindset? Is there a name for it? Is it a form of defiance in a way?
If you have experience with this, did you find methods to address creating a punishment system, or utilise other methods?

Thank you in advance to anyone who responds

House Talion​(dom male) • Feb 18, 2021

Take everything by it's most basic definition and it could describe practicly everything. Take what you want from this lifestyle and make it your own.

DrWakko • Feb 18, 2021

I don’t think there is a person out there who likes any or every punishment. I think it comes down to lack of creativity or thinking a punishment has to be x.

If anyone is being punished that much that everything you are trying doesn’t work then you might want to question being in that relationship. If you have to take time out of your day to think about punishments its time to think about ending it.

Also all punishments should be negotiated at the start of or in case of contracts the renewal or start of contract.

Arach • Feb 18, 2021

First, I do not have any experience with a partner with this mindset. However, I have some thoughts.
Second, I believe that any mindset conceivable is possible in the realm of possibilities for the human psyche. I also believe that it is possible within the BDSM or SM lifestyle for a person to experience events in a controlled manner what may have been experienced previously in an uncontrolled and traumatic manner. In other words, it may be possible for a person with an overwhelming sense of shame to experience punishment "for their insufficient existence" within a safe and caring relationship in order to build an understanding of their inherent value.
For example, you can create an "envelope" where within a generally caring and affirming relationship and the use of agreed upon protocols to enter into and exit from a time where purposeless punishments are given. Personally, I would create an exit protocol with an emphasis on the submissive's value and worth, and that the punishment was their form of play.
I would also say that within this form of play, the Dominant should take special care to examine and monitor their own reactions to this application of punishments and be overwhelmingly careful with any normal form of punishment or correction within the relationship.

Bunnie • Feb 18, 2021

@ Arach,

“Personally, I would create an exit protocol with an emphasis on the submissive's value and worth, and that the punishment was their form of play.”

Could you please elaborate further on what you mean by “exit protocol”?

OraclePollon​(sub female){NotYours} • Feb 18, 2021

I was just thinking about this very concept on a forum about spanking

https://thecage.co/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3640

How many see discipline as it needs to be something that the alternate person does not enjoy, to fall within it's definition. Could this be sadism? Yes? Do I find it troublesome? Yes.

Why is it your job to punish someone? When I think punishment, I very much think corrective. That can and has been proven to be more effective than negative punishment. Am I not a submissive because I think we should be equals, and that you should be leading me, not condemning me? Some might think so... I have also read a lot of posts lately (for my own understanding) That making your S/O happy and being selfless is the biggest thrill and purpose (from the poly community) yes I am tying things that are very complex together for the sake of making a point that is also very likely too complex to pointedly view, and therefore, agree with. Just a thought. But that means Polygamists shouldn't engage in discipline? I do not agree with that. The point is, corrective discipline is still a discipline. It does not need to be negative. Why does it need to be punishment minded (also, in the attached forum, like to punishment also being able to be both negative and positive).

Anyways, ramble of inflammatory opinion aside. I am very much a masochist for this reason. I enjoy punishment. I crave it. I insist that it is a constant part of my dynamic. I absolutely (have I used enough absolutes?) need to be told no, or concretely corrected when I do things wrong. It is essential to knowing that my relationship is fundamentally secure. That things are not being overlooked, that if I step out of line, I will be put back on the track.

I do not purposely step out of line, so I am sure it is very easy to just ignore it when I do. But that is the worst thing for my submission. That is one answer on my end to your question, I don't purposefully test my relationship. Some could say doing that merits a truly negative punishment. I would not disagree I have very visual levels of punishment, but there is a level that approaches hard limits and I would never decidedly do that. But, still with approval from both sides, I think there can be a sever negative punishment in lieu of the relationship being ended.

But to not get spanked by my Dom because "I like it" literally makes me cringe and instantly tells me you do not punish from a good place. You need to get that sensation of demoralization from punishment? That your submissive is forcefully doing something they 'hate'? I love doing things I hate. It broadens my horizon, tests my submission, lets me prove my worth, but to know you are only working to find things I hate for you punishment fetish? yuk.

There is a mental game to be played with punishment. If you are punishing your submissive, it should happen before you ever lay a hand or an order upon her. She should know exactly how she has disappointed you. She should feel that to her core and be willing to forfeit her body to correct that problem. Then, and only then (IMHO) is when the spanking should come in. It is to reinforce, correctively address the problem. That is the punishment.

Now, I am also a masochist, because I like to be whipped when my Sir needs his own outlet. Another forum... but also, NOT this style of punishment, that people *think* they are doing correctly.

Not trying to force my choices down other peoples throats... Baby/Daddy relationships sometimes need that parental figure, I guess? not my thing. I do not see my punishments of being humiliation or degradation. I am an adult, I get to be with someone who wants me to be a better person, not demonize me for making all my many mistakes and flaws.

T slave​(sub female){Owned} • Feb 19, 2021

Isn't that a brat? Just asking!

Bunnie • Feb 19, 2021

@ T,

maybe? I don’t know. What if it’s not acted on?

T slave​(sub female){Owned} • Feb 19, 2021

I'm sure someone has that answer but I will say I agree with Oracle's last statement.

"I am an adult, I get to be with someone who wants me to be a better person, not demonize me for making all my many mistakes and flaws."

I am a true believer in positive reinforcement.

Oh and as a masochist and Master being a sadist, it doesn't have anything to do with pain being a punishment. Our play can just be that!

ellefire​(sub female) • Feb 19, 2021

By definition (in the behaviorist sense) punishment is designed to decrease the likelihood of a behavior. Positive punishment is adding something (I tell my students it's like adding a "baddie" which means it must be something the person being punished does not like) and negative punishment is removing something (removal of a "goodie", or something the person being punished does like). If the intent is NOT to decrease the likelihood of a behavior it is technically not punishment. So if all physical "punishments" are actually things you like at some level, the removal of them would be more effective than their application. Gentle love-making as punishment anyone??

Bunnie, I initially took your OP to be more along the lines of liking punishment because of its greater meaning, though this is likely me projecting....I enjoy *the idea* of punishment because it means my behavior (and thus I) matter enough to be corrected. That said, there are certainly physical positive punishments that would be effective for me, and the removal of my Sir's attention/being prohibited from contact for a period of time is a highly effective negative punishment. Hell, even just knowing I've disappointed him could work (this could be considered positive punishment in that I would receive the bad feelings from him AND/OR negative punishment in that I would lose his good regard).

Such a great topic to think about!