Old vs new guard

DrWakko • Jun 24, 2022

Because the Old Guard are gay males who came back from WW2 which would make them close if not over 100. You can take traditions from the Old Guard.

And if you want to tell a funny joke at a munch tell people you are Old Guard. It will get a great laugh.

moll​(other female){owned slav} • Jun 24, 2022

Even though it is true that the Old Guard started with returning gay GIs from WWII, their traditions have been passed on and continue. It is now not only a part of the gay BDSM communities, it is a part of the hetero/pan BDSM communities as well. The fact that people laugh at those who consider themselves Old Guard is so disrespectful.

There are a bevy of groups that consider themselves Old Guard.

This website has a listing of Old Guard groups: https://lalc.info/

DrWakko • Jun 24, 2022

Leather is not Old Guard. Leather is Leather and Old Guard is Old Guard. Leather groups have borrowed some Old Guard traditions and practices, but the Leather folks that I know do not consider themselves Old Guard. I don't know anyone who considers themselves Old Gauard.

Check out the following links:
http://carterjohnsonlibrary.com/
https://leatherati.com/
https://leatherarchives.org/

moll​(other female){owned slav} • Jun 24, 2022

"...but the Leather folks that I know..." Exactly, the people you know....that doesn't mean they don't exist.

DrWakko • Jun 24, 2022

I know Leather Folk in probably close to two dozen communities around the US in well over a dozen states and I've been part of the BDSM community for over 20 years now... Its a pretty safe bet that my comment is correct.

moll​(other female){owned slav} • Jun 24, 2022

Apparently we don't know the same people. Thanks for such an interesting conversation.

simplylaura​(sub female){djinni} • Jun 24, 2022

Oof. I've been watching this thread, trying to decide if I want to weigh in, and the sheer amount of misinformation in this thread compels me to.

I identify as leather and have been a part of houses/families that consider themselves influenced by supposed "Old Guard" traditions. I'll say this. Old Guard as a monolith is a myth. We all crave a history, the story of how we became us, and like many things, leather and Old Guard have been romanticized to a ridiculous degree. I'm a huge fan of Laura Antoniou and instead of interpreting them, I'm just going to paste her words in (credit below), because she says them so well. For those of you who don't know, she is a very well known and sought after educator in the scene who also writes super fucking hot books and stories. She's also been a part of old lesbian Leather houses and is all about dispelling the myths of what people believe to be "old guard".

"So when you romanticize the past of the old leather or kinky community, whether you call it old guard or old days, and you imagine it was safer, more secure, more real, simpler, sexier, at once bigger and more insular than what we have now, look around a room like this and understand that 95% of you would not have been welcome walking into a gay men’s bar in the good old days. And if you did get in and look for the keys to a mystical fraternity of honor, respect and loyalty, you are mostly likely to find …cock sucking. With or without hats, keys, patches, and certainly without rituals, unless you mistake checking for the telltale signs of an STD a ritual. If you sought a mentor, he will probably tell you which alleys, bathrooms, parks and other deserted places were more likely to be safe than filled with cops, and he’ll tell you which clinic or doctor in town will treat you for syphilis, and he might tell you the name of a hot guy he met in another city that one time." (http://lantoniou.com/leave-the-myth-take-the-cannolli/)

That's literally what Old Guard is. The old days. The days where returned gay soldiers from WWII formed motorcycle clubs with hierarchies similar to the military, so that they could safely explore their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with wanting to recreate these types of experiences, but people have established Old Guard as a paradigm, when in reality there's no right way to do Old Guard. Unless you're gay, male, old (like... 60+ at this time?), and faced a ton of persecution.

However, Laura Antoniou also says this...

"Here’s the trick though – just because something is untrue, or limited to a certain time and place and not universally accepted as truth, does NOT deny its romance or mythic power. We should by all means create rituals and styles and protocols and traditions in our little communities. These are the ways human beings interact, find connection and meaning, mark exciting and worthy experiences and times in their lives. Just OWN that we are, if not trying to re-create something that never was, actually creating something new and uniquely US. Say, “This is MY CLUB’S way of showing respect and love for community minded members. We buy them clothing and then piss all over them while they wear it. Your party is this upcoming Saturday. Bring a towel.” Say, “This is the way my partner and mentor taught me, and it was so meaningful for me, I’d like to share that experience with you.” Then get agreement/consent, and go bravely forward. Instead of saying things like “Boys must be in service!” or “Dominants must never bottom!” or “Women must always be submissive!” and sounding like a douchebag, say, “To me, boy is a state of mind and an identity which may or may not include service,” or “I prefer not to bottom myself, it doesn’t turn me on as much as being in charge of things and topping does,” and “I prefer submissive women for my partners.” Own your identity and preferences and your myths and realities and stop trying to make them into something universal or absolute." (http://lantoniou.com/on-leather-traditions-and-houses-and-other-things-people-try-to-sell-you-on/)

If some dude is saying he's "Old Guard" and has told you that these traditions date back to the good old days, and that is how you must do things... that's a red flag. Anyone influenced by Old Guard tradition would laugh in their face. I love the idea of working your way up through a house, and have at one point been someone's alpha boi after being beta for a while. This is influenced by the old ways, but we weren't Old Guard (tm). It's just like any other thing that we perverts due. There should be no absolute "true way" to do any of this.

As Wakko suggested, I believe, I recommend reading The Leatherman's Handbook or the Leatherboy's Handbook by Larry Townsend and boy Vince Andrews, respectively. In addition, I recommend Urban Aboriginals, by Geoffrey Main. Google Laura Antoniou, Guy Baldwin, Skip Chasey.

But please, for the love of God, never ever say that Old Guard and/or leather is influenced by Gor. That made my little leather heart hurt.

dollMaker​(dom male) • Jun 24, 2022

The majority of those who have been labelled old guard, something they did not do themselves, were gay s & m enthusiasts, who came into that scene via gay bars, leather bars/clubs, and gay biker clubs such as the Satyrs - who was one of the first such clubs. Back in the day this was very much underground, desperate, with little to no uniformity. Its important to note at no time in the early days was there any one twue way or approach universal among these people.

Guy Baldwin, Hardy Haberman, Chuck Renslow, Dom Orejudos, and Race Obannon, are a few of the big names of leather culture, who have written about it and lived it. Guy Baldwins writing in particular has often been turned to addressing the questions and myths created about the old guard.

Here are a few writings about it https://leatherati.com/old-gods-die-hard-759810d6f3a1
https://bannon.com/2014/10/26/the-truth-about-old-guard/

Many seek to gatekeep and dictate what is and isn’t sound re the lifestyle and a few will site their old guard adherence, credentials (yeah right mr cis het so called master/dom) to big up their presence and soundness. If that person was not active in the late 40s, 50s into the 60s, are not gay, or bi, then they are not someone who was around during the early times that have been labelled as being old guard, so therefore have no right to say they are. During the 80s, the leather community, as was the vanilla gay male community, was virtually wiped out by AIDS as it came to be known, GRID before in 1980/81, so there are currently very few survivors from those early times, or who have first hand direct experience, those that knew the pioneers of gay s & m.

I think its one thing to say that old gay s & m practices appeal to you (though what those are is nebulous, uncertain, and open to debate) and you build them into your lifetstyle, but to state you are old guard is problematic when most stating this are no such thing.

The mythological way old guard has been, and still is represented, particularly online, is to my mind a problem, as often its been my observation its being done to bad mouth modern approaches to the lifestyle, to present some golden age (that did not in reality exist ) of purity, and if you are not doing it the old guard way then you are doing it wrong and in an inferior way. I am not talking about activity skills but how one lives your kink life, which to my mind is up to those consensually doing it, and if its based on enthusiastic informed consent, sound activity skills then its 100% valid, whether based on old gay s & m or modern ideas.

Leatherati is a good source for up to date info, re the current state of gay s & m, the modern leather community, which is more inclusive these days, so cis het straight people are involved now days, but thats a more recent development and has not always been the case.

Hope the above is helpful.

simplylaura​(sub female){djinni} • Jun 24, 2022

I don't think I can edit on my phone but I wanted to clarify one thing that I said. I mentioned being in houses influenced by the old guard, and what I meant to say is that I've been a part of houses and families that have their own rich traditions that have been influenced by things similar to what is typically thought of as old guard. There's no such thing as actual old guard tradition.

Noire{Owned (NH)} • Jun 24, 2022

Hello lovely!

I too have ran into a handful of Dominants who claimed to be apart of the Old Guard. To be honest whenever I asked what that meant, none of them would produce an answer that satisfied me. I always felt as if information was missing.
The responses I typically got from these said Dominants ranged between.
“Its the old/ traditional way of bdsm”
“ You do what ever I say, no questions asked ,or you’ll be punished.”
“Very struck rules and outlines for all my submissive’s.”

Personally I felt they all wanted a Slave. Or someone to mold / control to their liking.
Now if your into that sort of thing. The statements I made above doesn’t apply to those who like that.

As for me I am not a slave submissive so those conversations didn’t go very far. I recommend like many have said above. Do some research on the topic. Or ask Dominants with actual experience to explain the differences.

Good luck! ❤️