How do you determine the difference for yourself?

@ RightOne,

If I’m understanding correctly, you’re speaking of “the proof in the actions,” when you refer to information and data?

I’m really appreciating everyone’s viewpoints on this, thank you all. As someone who has always gone by “feel,” some of these concepts are quite new to me.

Glad somoene that's "Feeling" can use their brain.

Some people only ever operate on feelings and remain blind and don't even know what they do. But you've always seemed to have a good head on your shoudlers Bunnie. For someone that goes with feelings you do seem quite logical. When you're not losing sight of it anyway. But once a situation is made aware you pay attention to it.

I love you for that. <3

Bunnie,

Time in learning what works for you and what doesn't is important. As we develop a sense of who we are we choose better. That goes for all aspects of life. Sometimes you learn from bad experiences and sometimes you learn from good. Just because you do something and it works doesn't mean you need or want to do it again. AND your success does not mean others are entitled to more of the same from you.

It's up to you. Always.

I don't believe your gut will lie to you. However, your gut might be driven by old business or emotional issues - so in that case, what causes a knee-jerk reaction is not the gut but the damage done to you knowing when to trust it. In which case you need to do some internal work and learn to make good choices. The more you do the better you will be in your choices and the more confident you will be.

Then when some asshat rolls up on you and pressures you or violates your right to say no, you will immediately know that what that asshat wants from you and how they try to manipulate you into giving up that thing provide enough information for you to get away from them and shut them down.

I think the best choices are a combination of emotion and logic. BUT that combination is for you to create, again NOT the asshat.

For example.. I've had two really good long-distance relationships. We made it work and it was only due to tragedy that we were separated. Still, it worked but it was a lot of work. Having said that, I don't want another long-distance relationship. I know my limits and my lifestyle. Having succeeded at that twice in no way obligates me to do it again with another. Just because someone approaches me offering that doesn't mean we are a match or even that he is worth the effort it takes.

So when you are approached and asked to take on something and you feel unsure, THAT is enough. Maybe you will consider it in a few years but you do not have to do it now.

Taramafor​ you post on every thread regardless of topic boasting about how big a jerk you are. Bragging about how you clamp onto people at hello and totally disrespect what they want. Instead, you bully them and call them illogical and idiots. It doesn't matter how many times you say it. This attitude and approach might wear someone down to the point where they let you push them, but in truth, they don't know their gut.
...
When you know yourself and trust your choices, that behavior cannot succeed. You will block that person and put distance confident that you are taking good care of yourself.

Nothing else matters.

While someone like that might try to abuse you into giving them their way, it is NOT about them.

Two people meet up and decide if they want to try each other on for a while. They decide to see if there is enough there for them to co-create a dynamic.
That is the equality in our world. That we both are comfortable pursuing that. Or that we are both comfortable in trying that activity.

If it isn't both of you, then it isn't going to work. And what usually happens is the bully gets his jollies until the other's initial instinct kicks in again and they end it.

I believe this life lifts us up to a higher plain. Don't let anyone push you down so far that you don't trust yourself.

H*

Glad someone said this. These particular kinds of people fancy themselves persuasive, or silver-tongued or “smarter than the average bear”, but what they are is manipulative. They frame their need to pressure others into doing things their way as some sort of service to that person, but it’s in service to themselves. They feel they’re above simple rejection, or that the rules and boundaries of others don’t apply to them.

And it’s an utterly pathetic mindset to have. They’ll wear people down and make them doubt their own reality, and have no idea the damage they’re doing to them in the process, because they simply don’t care. It’s all about them and their sob story internal victimhood narrative.

@Thotsferatu

" These particular kinds of people fancy themselves persuasive, or silver-tongued or “smarter than the average bear”, but what they are is manipulative. They frame their need to pressure others into doing things their way as some sort of service to that person, but it’s in service to themselves. They feel they’re above simple rejection, or that the rules and boundaries of others don’t apply to them.

They’ll wear people down and make them doubt their own reality, and have no idea the damage they’re doing to them in the process, because they simply don’t care. It’s all about them and their sob story internal victimhood narrative."

Why does that sound like a typical modus operandi of a narcissist?

Just asking for a friend.

Because that’s exactly what it is. ?

Thotsferatu​(switch female)

"Glad someone said this. These particular kinds of people fancy themselves persuasive, or silver-tongued, or “smarter than the average bear”, but what they are is manipulative. They frame their need to pressure others into doing things their way as some sort of service to that person, but it’s in service to themselves. They feel they’re above simple rejection, or that the rules and boundaries of others don’t apply to them."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS said so much better than I could.

.....

FearlessBrat​(sub female)

@Thotsferatu

"Why does that sound like a typical modus operandi of a narcissist? Just asking for a friend."
.....

^^^^ Because it is exactly that.

And often it is a level of narcissism that is threaded through with all sorts of brokenness and jagged shards. Thus you see greed, entitlement, and desperation mashed together. So it's more than pushing. They literally are bombarding you on multiple levels. Which makes Bunnie's question very timely and I hope very helpful to others in that situation.

The narcissist is toxic and one does not grow out of toxicity. They shrivel from it.

This type will pummel you with their attitudes but never admit how short-lived their rare successes are.

In a way, we should thank Taramafor​ for being so obvious. Others who are smarter or smoother get away with much more before they are kicked to the curb.

@ Thotsferatu

Indeed Absolutely agreed.

Just wanted to put the name out. Especially to those who didn't have the pleasure of an encounter with the Narcissus.

If someone is illogical then they ARE illogical. How is that abuse? The solution is getting them to ADMIT that. To confess. Acceptance of a situation so it can be changed. But who wants to admit that they're being illogical? That's where straight answers come into play. For this it requires getting someone to contradict themselves. But then this risks "self abuse". At the same time if you try to coddle someone then that just leads back to abuse. Because people don't want to be hand held when they make mistakes.

Suddenly it's not so simple is it?

Here's the thing. In the end you can only abuse yourself. It's all projection. From the self. People think you're one thing. When in reality they see themselves. It's the old saying of "You are what you hate". But if I make an observation (without assumption. You actually tell me first) then that boils down too who's in the right. No two ways about it. So questions and answers. Except being a shit listener is also abusive. Regardless of who refuses to try and understand. Think two wrongs make a right? I have my flaws. But I always talk and listen and never turn my back on anyone. Fear the worst if you will. But it's called loyalty.

Funny how some people want to be heard yet never listen. Funny how some people claim your opinions don't matter when you value theirs when they never asked. Isn't this abusive? Isn't hypocrisy itself abusing everyone in the end?

Logic is logic. Is a concern/fear rational or irratinal? If you're an idiot about something then you're an idiot about it. I don't take offense to being called an idiot (or anything else for that matter). Only an idiot would take offense to being called an idiot. Why would I take offense to it? If I don't know then I don't know. If I know then I can correct. So I have nothing to fear.

If you're afraid of any situation, for any reason, it's because you are an idiot. Because ignorance is what creates fear. Anger stems from fear. So if you're offended then you figure it out. Either you know how to control the situation or you don't.

If you can't stop someone abusing you, and if you only ever see someone as a monster, then really, are you trying to be understanding? What if your own abuse is why someone else is abusing you? And some people are only ever all blame and no responsibility. Those that give straight answers stop being afraid. But those that flat out refuse to answer or always change the topic? Evasiveness is abuse of the self. You ALLOW it to happen. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. And if you can't face/confront a fear then you know you are weak and incapable. You can't have it both ways. So which poison do you pick? I actually give that choice. I'll follow every order, just not the deaf ears and turned backs one. Because THAT is abuse. But that doesn't mean I "force" myself on others. But hey, if you have concerns and misunderstadnings then wouldn't you want to talk about it?

The ultimate abuse? Suffering in silence. It's NEVER understood. And no one else is ever going to be that person that misunderstands you. Time goes by. 1000 thoughts screaming inside of your head. But the cowards won't even see that. They won't even consider how they affect others after getting the last word in. Which is why I will talk down on a coward. But I'll do it in an asking why. "Do you want to be that weak pathetic person that can't handle it?" Maybe with a dose of "Can you handle the truth?" After I point out a contradiction of theirs. It is abuse, but it's also giving them the choice. Somehow it makes them want to figure things out.

And that suicidal person about to kill themselves? "Bullshit. You're not doing it for others, you're doing it for yourself because you can't handle the pain. At least be honest about it." I LET them abuse me. Anger is good. Kept them distracted. And they found a partner.

When someone degrades me I LET them. Then I point out "Who does that remind you of?" And things are calm. Agreements are formed.

I LET abuse happen. To ME. You guys do understand I'm a sub, right? And you know someting. It make some happy. The challenge of situations pushes me to improve and do better. I love it.

Here's the simple fact. Some people don't want to listen. Which means you end up talking for two. When people listen to each other things go better. Things quiet down. Get calmer. Any two people. If it's not about the understadning the it's about willful ignorance. And if it's about willful ignorance then you DO choose to be an idiot.

Have you noticed that I say WHY that is instead of just saying it and acting in the right without proof? The why is important. The reasons for events is important. Losing sight of that leads to abuse. Because then you're blind. And won't even know why you hurt each other until it's too late. Controlled "abuse" is safer and can keep awareness and choice intact. Keep people calm, have events lead to fun quickly. BLIND abuse is dangious and destructive and leads to instability and insanity. Which of course is the most common kind of abuse. And the most harmful.

What is the logic of the current situation? Why is someone "hurting" you? Chances are it's probably because you hurt them. Or maybe you never hurt them yet accuse without proof. It takes two to argue. But only one to correct and inform. "This is the situation. Yes I am doing these things. But what do you want to do? What's your choice?"

The truth IS the truth. Not "an opinon". Be it mine or yours. It's the LOGIC of the situaiton. Asking goes further then telling. But either you can handle the truth or you can not. It's that simple. Sometimes to establish that you have to ask the right key questions. Get someone to trip themselves up. Which has to be done even if they do abuse themselves at first (and people that make many mistakes WILL hate themselves for it). But if they don't then they remain ignorant (which harms others. Others being abused). It's what happens AFTER abuse that matters. Regardless of wherever it's two people shouting at each other or someone hating themselves.

It's about the healing in other words. If a painful method is employed yet leads to positive results 5 seconds after because you did something afterwards to make someone happy then you tell me. Sometimes a "quick sting" is much better then longer term depression and despair. Sometimes you ONLY have two poisons. And only one can be turned int a cure. Quickly and efficently if you know what you're doing. I will admit everything I do. But I refuse to be walked over and have people act like they can get away with hurting me. But in the understanding comes clarity. Beating assumptions. Knowing each other. Accepting it.

There's also how that "self abuse" leads to people pushing themselves to improve and do better. So it makes me wonder about Bunnie TBH. I think she's been through it.

Yes, I'm doing the things you don't like or approve of. I've never hid who or what I am. Yes, I'm being stubborn. Are you afraid? Why? What are your concerns? How can we make things FAIR?

Key word right there. Where's the compromise?

Taramafor​ I stopped at the first sentence of your drivel.

FearlessBrat​ said it best.

"These particular kinds of people fancy themselves persuasive, or silver-tongued or “smarter than the average bear”, but what they are is manipulative."

It is not your right to decide if others are making sense or not. It is your job to respect it and LEAVE THEM ALONE when they say "NO."

Jesus Christ already