Abuse vs protocol

Abuse vs protocol

MasterBear​(other butch) • Nov 15, 2018

My Love and I are having a great conversation.

It is about how protocols can mask abuse.

We know someone who is very abusive and masks this in public with behaviors that are recognized as common protocols.

Has anyone else run into this?
Or has thoughts?

alawey​(sub female){(OWNED BY } • Nov 15, 2018

Saddly , in both kink and vanilla abuse is often hide by the abuser in public by doing things that seem to be the normal.

Sorry i dont really have any thing to help to goes towards this other that i know from first hand past experiences it was helpful to know that there are ppl in my life ( no matter how close they were) that were able to see it and be there for me if and when i needed it

Bunnie • Nov 15, 2018

@ MasterBear, interesting topic.

“very abusive and masks this in public with behaviors that are recognized as common protocols.”

I’m wondering if perhaps you could give some examples to help clarify?

MasterBear​(other butch) • Nov 15, 2018

@Bunnie

Sure!


Some accepted protocols for "s" types that are common:

No eye contact

All social interaction must be preapproved
(I.e. the D type gets to say who the s types friends are, if the s type has friends, how much interaction with family, and if the s type is allowed to go to social venues with or without the D type)

No financial control
Minimal talking (esp in public)
How to dress
Body mods
Pre consent to hypnosis
Pre consent to punishments that can include-- no safe word and being beaten awake.



I've seen all of this in some form or another.


My question is-----

At what point is what we do simply a mask for abuse.


I believe -----
How the the ppl FEEL about an action and its end product - even one CONSENTED to-- determines abuse.

Phanes​(dom male) • Nov 15, 2018

@MB

There is a real difference between protocol and abuse. First, with protocol, it has to be of CONSENT. Agreed upon by both parties as exceptable expectations. Some dynamics are into such control, it can provide structure in some lives, some enjoy the ability of giving up such control in order to escape from their day to day stressers and for many other healthy reasons that they give themselves to live under such restrictions and that is fine and dandy.

Whereas if those things you listed are without full consent; it's certainly abuse. Isolation of anyone from those who are family and friends, kept out of public eye, when taken out and are not allowed to interact with other while out are actions that an abuser uses in controlling their victims. They wish to break down the spirit and self identity of those who they are abusing. To dehumanize them, to feel as they have no escape, that they deserve no better than they are being treated so they give up trying. Stockholm Syndrome usually comes into play here; where the victim tend to develop unreasonable feelings toward the abuser and defends his/her actions blaming themselves for what is happening to them. They fall into such a deep abyss where they feel the likelyhood of them ever getting away is near impossible. It would take someone outside of the situation to recognize it in order to get the victim away safely; many fear that if they try to escape the misery; they can't do it by themselves without of being in fear of their lives or if captured, they will only further put themselves in much more harm.

So, with that said; there is a definate difference between protocol and abuse.

Fudbar​(dom male){❤️❤️❤️} • Nov 15, 2018

We've debated this before MB, and while I see your point philosophically, it's not very pragmatic in the moment.

As an alternative, I offer two simple metrics; love and communication. Anyone who knows the person(s) in question should be able to get a sense of those and how much is present in the relationship. If they're lacking, I've got no problem labelling it abuse even if the behaviors are mild.

On the other hand, if they are present and obvious to others, even extremely troubling behaviors can be forgiven. I think most of us at one point in our journey have seen a scene that triggered and made us sick to our stomachs but was still SSC.

Communication and love also offer a practical solution; talk to the D type in a loving and caring way in a group setting. Explore their philosophy and motivation for the control and potential abuse. See if they can justify it and how aware they are of negativity and downsides.

That's the ideal.. reading between the lines, I suspect this one is complicated and probably neck deep in interpersonal history and local scene politics. An ugly hot ongoing mess with no way to fix without fallout.

Your words and your morality carry weight within the community. Discuss, gather allies, attack it from a place of love, concern and growth. Find a good path forward.

Yes, easy to say, hard to do, frustrating to watch as a protective D type. Give your love and extra hug and be strong. We're here to help you cope.

MasterBear​(other butch) • Nov 15, 2018

Thank you both.

I think my point is -

Coercion can look like consent and even feel like consent until time tells differently.

And

A D type interested in abuse is not going to bother reading between the lines.
Only the end product.




I wont be approaching this D type.
I dont handle predators that way


I think my question is - who else has seen this?
What forms has it taken ?

Is it common in other cultures ?

I also think that a person can consent to something and still feel victimized by it.

So for me --- the feelings are more important than the consent.

Onlinedomguy​(dom male) • Nov 15, 2018

I know there are many reasons why someone allows themselves to be drawn into an abusive relationship in the BDSM realm or vanilla world. I think you follow your feelings and senses when playing. If something feels wrong or concerning, talk about it. As a Dom, it is our responsibility to always keep our subs safe and sound. We must look and listen to how our subs react to various things. I know everyone knows this, but I feel like submissives need to let their Dom know when something doesn't feel right.

I do think many kinds of activities can cross from fine into abusive depending on the people involved. If I have a submissive and we are engaged in very structured play, I must be aware of her words, body language, facial expression, and other verbal and nonverbal cues. I do believe also the submissive has to be clear when something does not fell right. I use the red, yellow, green method to always check in and make sure we are going in the right direction for her.

Like everything else in this world, communications are key and understanding someone wanting to be submissive does not mean her concerns are not to be taken seriously. Also, for submissives, if it doesn't feel right, you express it to your Dom, and he/she ignores it or repeats the behavior, maybe you need to step away and move on.

MasterBear​(other butch) • Nov 15, 2018

I agree with all of this.

However, those are from the lenses of a healthy dynamic.

I'm saying that D types that are into abuse---- have a different modus operandi.


And -
That those things can seem legit.

But coercion is a different game.

Ok- so a D type with a young newbie sub.

The subs initial desired degree was a masters in forensics.

Over time the sub changes her major to psychology. Both decreasing their overall time in college and the intensity of the classes .

It just so happens that the D type is a psychologist.



Talk to the s type. They say they choose that.

But did they? Or did the subtle yet powerful communication from the D type coerce this?

Keep in mind that the last three s types dropped put of college.

Also keep in mind that the s type has started dressing and presenting as the D types last 3.


Then take this concept and apply it to protocol.

The s type says they agree, but do they really ?
Or are they being manipulated by a person who uses bdsm as an abusive tactic because bdsm VALIDATES certain things.


I'm talking here beyond consent.

The grey areas.

Bunnie • Nov 15, 2018

@ MasterBear, thank you for clarifying
As @ Fud said, I too remember having a similar discussion around this concept, with you (which I won’t rehash). I tend to agree with along the lines of where he was going in his response here, however I would change “communication and love” to “connection.”
I think something to keep in mind is that one can never determine a situation merely by observation from the outside. Especially how someone is feeling. There are two very perfect examples of this... what’s called “resting bitch face”... when someone’s relaxed facial expression makes them look like they’re in a grumpy mood, even though they’re not... and suicide... often no one has a clue that the person who committed suicide was even contemptlating it, because “they seemed so happy.” It’s the same with relationships... you can never determine what the true agreement is from an outside perspective... I always looked at my parents marriage, and in my opinion, for as long as I could remember, they seemed miserable and it seemed like a nightmare, however, as I’ve grown, I look at them now and see that yes, it’s dysfunctional, but they’re truly happy with each other. It may not be right for me, but it seems to be right for them.
Abuse definitely happens. No one denies that. And I’m sure it is hidden under many an umbrella, including Protocol. Unfortunately if you do suspect it... much like abuse in any relationship... it needs to be the victims choice to leave. You can support them, and maybe even encourage them if you feel it’s necessary... but you can’t do it for them.