BDSM without the DSM - thoughts?

The Thinker​(sadist male){NotLooking} • Sep 30, 2020

But that's exactly what I am saying as well. Except, I would never ever claim that a limit should not be a limit. I would just say, oh, interesting, I guess we are not compatible then. And then move on.

The Thinker​(sadist male){NotLooking} • Sep 30, 2020

"Some things can be taken off the table or added as those negotiators see fit."

I have no interest in that. I don't want to take things off the table, and I won't ask someone to take things off thre table for me. Simple as that.

Bunnie • Sep 30, 2020

When first exposed to this discussion, I said of course I negotiate a relationship, however on further pondering I realised otherwise.
Once upon I time I believed love conquered everything... until I found myself married to a wonderful man who I loved absolutely... and yet was still very miserable with. Why? We simply weren’t compatible in so many ways. In fact if I had chosen to consider our relationship mindfully, I wouldn’t have walked into it with the knowledge I have now, even despite the fact he is one of the best people I know.

I came to understand that for me, compatibility is of utmost importance for establishing the initial foundation of which we will agree to build from. I can understand what DrWakko is saying in seeing the “getting to know each other” phase as a form of negotiation, where each person is bringing forth their wants and needs, and determining if they match.

I think the difference is where it goes from there.

What is the defining line for a person, that determines how much they’re willing to sacrifice simply to be with a person? Or allow another to sacrifice simply to be with them?

I personally am not ok with anyone feeling that in order to be with me it would be necessary to sacrifice their needs or wants. Why would I ask someone to strip away the very essence of what brings them nourishment, to simply satisfy my desire to walk with them? Is that not quite selfish in some way? And I’m not looking to simply submit for the sake of submitting. I’m looking for the *person* I want to align with. Aligning requires compatibility as it’s foundation, otherwise you’re simply trying to “push shit uphill.”

An obvious example... I didn’t want children. I was very upfront about that right from the beginning with every potential partner I’ve ever met, because I simply didn’t want someone to sacrifice something that big for the sake of “romanticised” thinking. That is a potential life regret, and I have no desire bearing the brunt of someone’s resentment, simply because we thought that at some stage maybe either of us would relent (because that’s secretly what it’s about, isn’t it?). Of course, I’m not speaking about the concept of compromise within an already established relationship... that is something else.

Determining compatibility can be done very early if we have the self-knowledge (which I do believe is a very important factor, because we can only make choices within the realms of our awareness) and a willingness to be honest with ourselves and each other. And I think it’s perfectly ok to determine that someone isn’t the right fit. I don’t see it as a personal reflection of anyone... in fact quite the opposite... I see it as honouring everyone involved.

OraclePollon​(sub female){NotYours} • Sep 30, 2020

To me, punishment is not discipline.

I never look at my masochist tendencies as an "I will only get this if I am bad" because yes, I never try to be bad... it just kind of happens when it does... mostly my mouth gets me in trouble. But that is not why I offer my submission, or my ass to be paddled. DSM goes much deeper for me.

The punishment, or pain in my submission is an offering to my Sir. I offer him my body, because he takes care of my mind. So if he has a bad day, or is internalizing his emotions, my body is the outlet for HIS satisfaction. I need not have done a damn thing wrong. I have been in the relationships where my Daddy thinks he has to project anger onto me, or trap me into being punished, because he needs to receive his stress, but won't touch me for his vulnerability, it had to be mine. That is not acceptable.

I want you to take your frustrations out on my ass with your favorite, or most painful flogger. Unleash the demon on me, so I can carry you through the trepid waters. Because when it is all said and done, I know you will carry me. But if you think you need to make it my fault that you need to whip my ass... you are not a sadist. You are a Daddy, and I dont need a father who thinks I need to be constantly punished or corrected through violence. I need someone who's violence is their vulnerability, and they are giving me that gift of allowing me to help them, for once, for all the sheltering they give my mind, they can have my body.

That is my take on pain in a D/s relationship. I think there needs to be more talk about negative punishment in terms of pain on a disobedient sub. It is troublesome.

OraclePollon​(sub female){NotYours} • Sep 30, 2020

Okay... I had to elaborate. Sorry, not sorry.

You should NEVER allow someone to lay a physical hand on you because they convinced you, you did something wrong. That is not choice, that is gaslighting and emotional manipulation.

The only way SM works is if you allow them to get closure on your mutual disagreement through pain. As a measure of THEM having an outlet for their emotions.

Violence should never be a punishment, it should be a positive closure to an argument or discussion. Or, just for funzies!

It is an outlet for energy, even if that energy is negative. It should be the tool to bring someone back to positive. But you should NEVER be okay with violence enacted on you, being your fault. A Sadist should take full responsibility for what he needs. Not try and convince you it is owed to him for "fixing" you. He should thank you for the gift you give him that no one else will, that allows him to expel his frustrations and negativity. In attempt to get back to himself, and to realize how invaluable your service in this way is to the fundamental of his/her being.

I am saying this as someone who LOVES to be whipped... to a certain pain threshold. But I will never be okay with being hit through discipline or humiliation or degradation, or any of those negative emotions that are only to be felt through the receiving party... who is already receiving the pain... how does that make sense?!

Please, if you like pain, be aware of the differences, it is crucial to spotting the red flags.

The Thinker​(sadist male){NotLooking} • Sep 30, 2020

Interesting thoughts, Oracle.

"The punishment, or pain in my submission is an offering to my Sir. I offer him my body, because he takes care of my mind. "

Personally, I wouldn't accept it. I only play with true masochists, who get a pleasure from pain, and enjoys the pain just as much as I enjoy giving pain.

"So if he has a bad day, or is internalizing his emotions, my body is the outlet for HIS satisfaction."

I would never channel my bad days into S&M. I won't even play on my bad days. I would get my emotions stabilized first, and alone. But again, that's only me.

"But if you think you need to make it my fault that you need to whip my ass... you are not a sadist."

I agree with this. But my point was not the above. My point was, punishments make sense (that's the Discipline part), and for a Sadist like me, punishments involve S&M. That is independent of pure S&M play because both parties enjoy it.

"You should NEVER allow someone to lay a physical hand on you because they convinced you, you did something wrong."

That is what I was talking about. Seems like you disagree with me that D is sometimes reasonable, and that D can lead to S&M. Which I respect, but I won't be in a relationship D is always unreasonable. Again, it's all about personal choices.

"A Sadist should take full responsibility for what he needs. ... He should thank you for the gift you give him that no one else will, that allows him to expel his frustrations and negativity."

I am a Sadist, but I don't need S&M. I wouldn't thank a masochist for giving me a gift, as it is not a gift, it is an equal exchange. The masochist gets pleasure out of taking pain, too.

Bottom line, I don't take gifts.

tallslenderguy​(other male) • Sep 30, 2020

i grew up in a religious culture that was infused with the notion that "love" was a sacrifice on the part of the giver, that one should somehow give and give and give without thought of return. i really believed (i was conditioned) and tried to make this work, but it was untenable. You run out at some point, if nothing is being put back in. Funny, it seems that that is a 'sin against nature."

i am loving finding others who see this similarly, that compatibility and the resulting symbiosis is what nurtures and sustains a relationship. We see that in nature all the time. At a 'basic' physics level, the most compatible ions attract and form the strongest bonds ('chemistry'). Humans seem more complex, with thought and feeling, making relationship a complex venture. It makes sense to me to apply some practical framework to help relationship along.

OraclePollon​(sub female){NotYours} • Sep 30, 2020

I agree with your outlook on it.

I will clarify so that I can agree with what you are saying. I did say gifts, but it is more accurate to what you are saying. Not a spoken "thank you" or a physical "gift" an exchange, balance type of thank you and a figurative gift. How you put it is more in line with what I was trying to say more figuratively, than literally.

Also to dig into it, like alcohol, you should never not be in control. If you need time to stabilize, that is different for everyone. If you D style is that you do not seek your submissive to balance you and don't need her to carry your burdens, that is also case specific.

and for true masochist, I would hope if someone does not like it, it is a hard limit for them. Don't play outside your comfort zone for the sake of your D. So a masochist would need to be someone for a Sadist. But I totally understand what you mean and want when you say you would only enjoy it with someone who enjoys the pain as much as you do.

Where as, me specifically, I enjoy the non physical aspects of pain: like the endorphin rush, the high that follows, the self centering and the mental reward that comes with pleasing my D, not necessarily the sting of the lash, it is everything else that is addicting.

The Thinker​(sadist male){NotLooking} • Sep 30, 2020

"and for true masochist, I would hope if someone does not like it, it is a hard limit for them. Don't play outside your comfort zone for the sake of your D."

THIS!

Please, all subs looking for Ds reading this, do this as a favor to your potential Ds. Say it's a hard limit. Don't just get into the relationship with a hope that either you could tolerate it, or your potential D will tolerate not having it. Please, please, please walk away instead. D's can't read minds. You have to tell them that it is a deal breaker.

And if your potential D tries to tell you otherwise, that there may be a compromise, my personal view is that it is a HUGE red flag. YUUUUGE. That guy is either a novice or a manipulator.

MrLotus • Dec 3, 2020

I love you