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Determining informed consent

I'mME
3 weeks ago • Sep 5, 2022
I'mME • Sep 5, 2022
MasterBear wrote:
I think people confuse informed consent with emotional outcome.
I also think that imformed consent and negotiation go hand in hand.

My beloved and I have been M/s 24/7 for about 23 years. So a lot of those new conversations are not neccessary for U/us anymore.


I dont play with newbies- specifically because I dont negotiate well. I need a play partner that is experienced and can go where the scene takes us.

Also- just because someone has informed consent does not mean that they cant be coerced.

Consent has everything to do with how a person "feels" after the scene. After they have had time to emotionaly process what has happened- ESPECIALLY in the beginning.



[Consent has everything to do with how a person ''feels afterwards]

This sentence is what you believe?

It is what actually can happen and does happen. I do not buy into the notion ''u didn't know, the Dom should have known, well no I did not specifically mention that, no I didn't use my safe word because I was in subspace.

See what I did there, Master Bear, I made an sub excuse sandwich, lol.
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Don't mind me, I'm on the dorky side.

I'm squeezing my mirth over dumb jokes I make back into the box.
I did put a couple different ideas in that paragraph.
I really think they can be summed up to subs, bottoms, they have responsibilities also. Unless they're in a dynamic where that is not wanted.

It can empower people when as a sub you are prepared when it's time to negotiate.
In my head [sometimes they do not match] I think w Dom may enjoy some negotiating on the subs part. It lets them know, or I hope that the subs care. And are stepping up to a display interest, excitement, genuine joy.

What's your thoughts Master Bear, I did begin with asking about your thoughts .

Thank you
LongerJohnny​(dom male){Catcher}
3 weeks ago • Sep 5, 2022
MasterBear wrote:
Consent has everything to do with how a person "feels" after the scene. After they have had time to emotionaly process what has happened- ESPECIALLY in the beginning.

Do you think you might want to rephrase that, for the sake of clarification? Surely you did not mean to suggest that one should wait to establish consent until AFTER a scene has concluded?
Because consent is always necessary long BEFORE a scene has taken place. And not only during negotiations regarding particular scenes, but even as early as conversations about limits during the too often ignored 'getting to know you' phase of burgeoning dynamics.
Yes, revisiting and renegotiating limits following a scene could change one's level of consent, but it should always be firmly established before any scene ever begins.
I'm sure I just misunderstood your point but it seems an important one to clarify just in case I'm not the only person who did.
Miki​(masochist female)
3 weeks ago • Sep 5, 2022
Miki​(masochist female) • Sep 5, 2022
I read some of the replies, then started skimming, and then just decided to reply to the original post because walls of text can make my eyes go crossed than they aalready (slightly) are.

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Acronyms, heavy analysis, deep definitions, while all quite valid I'm sure-- can make mountains out of ant hills.

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Make sure you know the sub well before "playing". The overall person.. Behavior outside of the home or play nest. Are they flighty? Tempermental? Fickle, or overall stable and open to differing viewpoints? (handy in a workplace)

A newbie? Is it someone genuinely twisted and into learning and participating in this crap, or is it some kid who's horny and curious enough to dabble?
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Bottom line, when I was active and if I am again, I'm crystal clear as to what's a "Go" and a "No Go" ex. impact play, a.k.a. taking a beating. No... right from Jump.

A sub (or a dom for that matter) worth getting it on with is straightforward from the start.

Consent is a tricky thing so the best defense is know your potential partner well before the whips, chains, collars and other shit come out, and even then, sorry to say, "Stop!" means Stop and "No" will always mean no.

Sure, a solid pain in the ass when you're all heated up and your dick can blast through concrete but that's how to stay out of legal trouble. because even with initial consent there can be trouble. A high-profile example of that is that (likely former) L. A .Dodgers pitcher Trevor Bauer. He got carried away, didn't get a criminal trial in court because it was clear that she in itially consented,--but he's suspended from playing for 2 seasons.. and maybe again. Such public revelations can ruin careers even without a criminal conviction. Remember, consent, "contracts" especially in D/s or slave situations are not really legal. One cannot own a slave even if the partner wants to be one.

To boil all this down the same old well-worn words of advice:

Communicate, Observe, and Stop at all red lights, unfair as they may seem.
Lovedove​(sub female)
6 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Lovedove​(sub female) • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland wrote:
Here's an interesting wrinkle for you. What about when informed consent is impossible?

For example impact play. I can explain what will happened, precisely what I intend to do, the physics behind the impact, likely physiological and psychological consequences, but that really doesn't matter. Someone who has never been hit before will have no reference for any of that. It will be nothing but their belief they are prepared to experience it, not reality and hardly informed.


You usually leave gag out and leave them able to speak after your first impact on the part of the body you struck. I learned that from years of being a professional provider. I'm retired now. After first smack you leave time to let the bottom time to process their experience.
Zedland​(dom male)
6 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland​(dom male) • Sep 22, 2022
Lovedove,

My comment was meant more as a thought experiment. Lets take a non-kink example of what I'm driving at.

Imagine for a second I was going to alter your eyes to perceive ultraviolet light. I can explain what I will do, how I will do it, and what the likely outcomes will be in excruciating detail. Still you would suddenly be confronted with sensory inputs your eyes are literally not made to comprehend. A completely alien experience. One you cannot truly came to understand before it happens to you. And since you cannot you therefore cannot give truly informed consent, because that requires you to fully understand what will happen.
Lovedove​(sub female)
5 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Lovedove​(sub female) • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland wrote:
Lovedove,

My comment was meant more as a thought experiment. Lets take a non-kink example of what I'm driving at.

Imagine for a second I was going to alter your eyes to perceive ultraviolet light. I can explain what I will do, how I will do it, and what the likely outcomes will be in excruciating detail. Still you would suddenly be confronted with sensory inputs your eyes are literally not made to comprehend. A completely alien experience. One you cannot truly came to understand before it happens to you. And since you cannot you therefore cannot give truly informed consent, because that requires you to fully understand what will happen.


You're just one of those people that want to be right. I litterly gave you a practical answer outside of theory. If you don't want to discuss but just always be right I feel sad for any bottom looking to you for advice. There are litterly hundreds of ways to softly introduce impact play, sadomasochistic play, fluid exchange play in soft safe ways that will keep the communication open before diving deeper into play. The real issue is if you have a Top who is only interested in being a lecturer and too busy talking all the time to listen to their partner.

Usually after you introduce any new form into play that is new to either person or just one it's best advised to give a long period of time before continuing. Or just give a sample of the new play than stop for that moment and continue on with your average play scene.

Take time afterwards to do aftercare and find time to properly talk about what the mate felt. If they seem apprehensive to talk about the new play style or seem not to have had enough to process what happened yet put the conversation on hold.
Do not attempt exploring again until you get a solid Answer from your mate on their thoughts about the new experience. Silence is a solid NO so is an unsure answer i.e shrugs, "I don't know", maybe,ect. In time if you did properly build a solid relationship with your mate you get an answer. If you don't than something is wrong you need to explore your communication skills in the dynamic to see what is going on.

My answers are not theory. My answers are practical. There is always room for discussion but not with someone who just wants to dismiss and change the subject to be right.
Theory is very important in life yes and especially in BDSM but just like in life practical is usually what really matters.
Especially when you are in a real life scene with another human being so theory is still very important but sadly many people don't deliver the BDSM theory correctly into practical actions.

Which is what I took from the OP. The general theories of BDSM are what most people novice or seasoned misinterpret and also misrepresent in practical. On all three major represented roles: Dom, sub, Switch. Sadly too many people focus too much time on theory like most college professors but not enough time on practical deliverance in the real world.
Lovedove​(sub female)
5 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Lovedove​(sub female) • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland wrote:
Lovedove,

My comment was meant more as a thought experiment. Lets take a non-kink example of what I'm driving at.

Imagine for a second I was going to alter your eyes to perceive ultraviolet light. I can explain what I will do, how I will do it, and what the likely outcomes will be in excruciating detail. Still you would suddenly be confronted with sensory inputs your eyes are literally not made to comprehend. A completely alien experience. One you cannot truly came to understand before it happens to you. And since you cannot you therefore cannot give truly informed consent, because that requires you to fully understand what will happen.


And even this example of being blindfolded can be explored easily with my practical examples. BDSM is absolutely not hard to explore or especially give consent if you have a respectful and competent top as a play partner. I am going to reiterate my last statement. Just just do a new act for a minute or two sensory deprivation with no bondage if you are afraid the person can't handle it or just keep talking to them calming their anxiety.

You let them know it will only be a short period of time that you must honor. After the introduction of the new play act I strongly suggest you take a break and assess your partners body language and ask them verbally if they want to continue.
But remove the newly introduced play if you did not receive a solid "yes" or "I loved it" or anything as a solid enjoyment from them when you introduced the new play style.

I absolutely loved getting ceran wrapped around my face while I was tied tightly to the bed and told my play partner to keep going.

He told me he usually got people who needed breaks after introducing that. Everyone is different. Nobody is a cookie cutter. But everyone involved needs to hear a solid "yes" in some way or you must move on with some other normal play type that is already established in the realm of your partners "yes" lists.

Than go back later after playing and talk about the new experience. If you have a mate who is able to experience sub drop don't ask until they are back to a vanilla mindset.
I like to discuss new play the next morning over breakfast or after taking a hot shower. Everyone is different but the conversation must be had to see how they feel about the newly introduced play style.

There is nothing complicated about communication unless one or more parties are not confident in that skill. Which is fine. I wasn't for years but I sought help to better my communication skills. If anyone needs help in better communication skills you can try therapy, books, YouTube videos on the subject, taking a class at a community college,ect.

But you must find the courage to tell your partner you have issues communicating. Because 9/10 they already figured it out on their own they just didn't want to bring it up first.
Zedland​(dom male)
5 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland​(dom male) • Sep 22, 2022
Lovedove,

I was not talking practicalities or communication or listening or anything else besides pure abstract theory. There is no right or wrong, its a philosophical question that has no real practical application. A thought experiment relating to the OP's original question that I found interesting. Of course since then I have been consistently disappointed in those entirely missing the point. Can perfect understanding without experience exist? Can a layperson really understand a highly technical matter requiring specific knowledge?

Nor have I mentioned blindfolds on this thread, so I'm not sure where that came from. Especially since I offered a specifically non-kink example.
ButterfliesAndCuffs​(sub female){Caught}
5 days ago • Sep 22, 2022
Zedland wrote:
Lovedove,

My comment was meant more as a thought experiment. Lets take a non-kink example of what I'm driving at.

Imagine for a second I was going to alter your eyes to perceive ultraviolet light. I can explain what I will do, how I will do it, and what the likely outcomes will be in excruciating detail. Still you would suddenly be confronted with sensory inputs your eyes are literally not made to comprehend. A completely alien experience. One you cannot truly came to understand before it happens to you. And since you cannot you therefore cannot give truly informed consent, because that requires you to fully understand what will happen.


I see it like this: even without knowing exactly what the outcome will be, you’re consenting to the not knowing. You educate yourself as much as you can, but in the end you acknowledge you don’t know what your personal experience will be but you consent to trying it anyway.