Could someone explain Old Guard vs. New Guard

Could someone explain Old Guard vs. New Guard

GiyuuSimp​(switch female) • Sep 3, 2023

I have read briefly on the internet that it has its roots in the military but I would like to know more about it from someone who lives it or adheres to it. Thank you!

TopekaDom​(dom male) • Sep 3, 2023

Well in my 30 or so years in the lifestyle, I can't say I have heard that one. While I understand where that might come from, I don't believe that to be entirely correct.

Now what I am about to espouse is going to piss off (and I mean really piss off) some others, is how I see things. Does it mean that is it law or "Twue"? No.

It is only what I and those that engage in my world do.

Old Guard (or Old School as I refer to it) is a much more highly formalized way of engaging in the lifestyle. We do Honorifics. We do very (and I mean VERY) specific rituals. We tend to only recognize very few roles within the lifestyle. Things we don't believe in are:

DaddyDoms
babygirls
brats

These things we leave to the New Guard but don't think of them as real timers. I tend to call them Weekend Warriors.

Now the thing is, we Old Schoolers are a drying breed. Time changes all things.

Little Vixie​(sub female){Mgh30} • Sep 3, 2023

I would agree that times are changing. What I will disagree with is saying that Brats, DD, and BG are weekend warriors. Just because you don't play with it doesn't make it any less of the lifestyle. It comes across as narrow minded.

I will agree that they are more New Guard as when you think bdsm you may automatically think 'sub and dom'. Sub listens and does and they are told. Dom gives and instructs.
With the times changing, things expand. I consider myself a bratty, Masochist submissive. My dom considers himself as a playful sadist. We do alot within bdsm. Not just "im horny. Let's roleplay".

Brats have their Brat tamers
Babygirls have their Daddydoms

Would you tell a brat tamer that they aren't a "real timer" because of what they do.

Again it's comes across as narrow minded and disrespectful to say that you don't view these people as those that are in the community just because you don't play with it. Everyone plays apart within bdsm. And to say stuff like that is possibly to blame as to why Old Guard is dying.

TopekaDom​(dom male) • Sep 3, 2023

I find it no more disrespectful than New Guard people tell me I am an abuser and should be arrested.

In my point of view, these are not people who want to make the effort to create structure. They want to be cutesy and think that S&M stand for Stand and Model. They really have no discipline nor desire any. Then they tell use we need to change to fit in and that would destroy the very core of what we Old Schoolers are.

They want us to give up our methods so they can fit in.

Not going to do that.

Sincorrigible​(sub female) • Sep 3, 2023

Laughing...

TD, I'd offer you a wooden spoon to stir things up a bit, but you seem to be doing fine with your oar there....

😁😘

X

Literate Lycan​(dom male) • Sep 3, 2023

Not to disagree with the esteemed gentleman from Topeka, and my time on the earth isn't nearly as long (oh wait - hey we're about the same age - my bad), but I heard the term Old Guard a while ago and did a little research . . . or rather a lot of research . . . to determine what it was. There is a rather sizable difference between the "Old Guard" and Old Schoolers. I believe the good gentleman may be referring to an Old Schooler, which is distinctly different than Old Guard.

Over the years, the moniker has been borrowed or outright stolen by those who never earned it, hence the rather nebulous understanding of the term or terms. Further the lack of clarity on the Old Guard might indicate it has dwindled away to a very small group of practitioners from the size it once may have been. I am by no means in any way, shape or form knowledgable in this subject beyond researching it and even in that, there are various "experts" who took a weekend course and now write blogs about it. The closest I might consider myself would be at one time I used Right Guard as an underarm deodorant . . . but I digress.

The lifestyle isn't mine, nor do I claim any affiliation with it. That being said, most somewhat accurate accounts indicate the Old Guard originated with soldiers who returned from WWII and sought out the military structure and associations they had formed while deployed. Most of those associations apparently were homosexual. They established rigid rules of behavior in their Guard, simulating the order of the military. Most accounts attribute the leather to the gear they wore while riding motorcycles. And the leather became part of the lifestyle where they wore their badges of "honor" and "rank" on them (my words), very similar to the badges and insignia on their uniforms. It was a way for someone in the lifestyle to determine if someone else was in the lifestyle.

There is a great deal of conjecture that the earliest practitioners passed down the knowledge by mentoring and teaching. To become Old Guard, you had to be welcomed in and mentored. They were gatekeepers (as you can imagine, if they were practicing BDSM and homosexuality in the 40s and 50s, they had to maintain a secret lifestyle I would guess). You had to pass through rights of initiation and prove your metal. And there was a rigid structure from what I've read. Somewhere along the line, others probably felt the thought of being "Old Guard" was cool and stole the term to use. They may have felt the high protocol of the Old Guard was cool, but didn't feel they wanted the rest . . . such as actually learning, or maybe they weren't gay.

I don't know how the Old Guard may have morphed over the years. Did it expand to include heterosexuals as well? Don't know.

I guess if there was an Old Guard, there must be a New Guard, but I just don't see that. I think it's more self-imposed importance to call oneself the New Guard. What are you guarding? Certainly not a specific lifestyle as the Old Guard may have thought. Anyone claiming they were trained in the ways of the Old Guard probably were not. I would believe there are still pockets of Old Guard and I'm certain someone on the Cage may know of them, but like many legends of the past, I believe they are not what they once were. I sought out smarter individuals than I am by far on the subject and none of them actually know anyone trained in the Old Guard. That isn't to say that others don't mentor one another and learn from one another. But I don't believe it's as it was. Maybe still in existence, just not quite the same.

I do agree with Topeka on the New Guard: from the little I've read, the New Guard represents the new leather scene and is more into enjoyment and doesn't practice protocol or gatekeeping. They frown upon anyone else who would practice routines or protocol. But what do I know? As I said, not my bag. And if anyone actually knows, I will stand corrected if you have better information. Or if you were actually Old Guard. Have a great evening.

djinni​(dom female){smplylaura} • Sep 3, 2023

I recently was fortunate to sit in on a class taught by Hardy Haberman about this very subject. It was very informative and explained it better than I’ve ever heard.

This is a link to an article that has the info that was taught in this class.

https://lavendermagazine.com/our-lives/lifestyles-communities/leather-life-hardy-haberman-discusses-leather-traditions-and-protocols

Little Vixie​(sub female){Mgh30} • Sep 4, 2023

No One told you in this thread to do that. Bdsm is a very open community and to say that because people want the softer side, makes them not apart of it is again disrespectful. We can point fingers back and forth about who is right and who is wrong.
One thing for sure in this forum is that you are being judgement as fuck because you don't play with that aspect. Who cares. If ddlg or brats aren't you speed then it's not. But they aren't any less a part of this community than you are.

If someone were to take a look at what you do as a sadist, yeah someone may call the cops. But they don't comprehend the trust that goes into that dynamic. Just as you aren't with brats and brat tamers and ddlg. No one is telling you to stop doing what you do in the kink world. You are always going to meet someone who has an issue with it. But being narrow minded and saying "well because some people say I'm an abuser, then you weak loving people can't be apart of what I think is bdsm"

Again times are changing. Being narrow minded is gross and will get you know where. Im not going to continue to argue with you after this because it's clear that we will not agree with each other. Just be safe with your kink and don't yuck on others yums

I'mME • Sep 4, 2023

Lmao, pass thr popcorn please. (Miss that emoji)

I'mME • Sep 4, 2023

LL
Just a small correction on your writing. The men in the Old Guard would meet at biker bars. Several places opened up for them, but one thing or another would be their demise. Its how biker bars got in the mix, and Im sure some would have picked up the joy of riding. Leather can be thr difference between keeping some layers of skin or not if the bike goes down. These men had all kinds of protocols and rituals, steeped in hierarchy.


(Stepping away quietly.)