Is it still a form of masochism?

Bunnie • Feb 19, 2021

ElleFire,

You nailed where I was coming from. Thank you for clarifying around it, and reflecting your response back in a way that helped me clarify it too. I agree, disappointment or removal of attention are probably the most effective forms of punishment for me as well. Or even on the other end of the scale... simple discussion. Sometimes that can be the cringiest part.

Taramafor​(sub male) • Feb 19, 2021

Sadists or/and doms can still mess up and make mistakes. So if a punishment if given without being known (before or after) then no. Otherwise yes.

If the punishment is honest and fair, sure. I'll take the punches. If someone wants to hurt me, they hurt me. If someone wants to end me, well, still here aren't I? I consider myself an accepting and tolerant person that will take any pain inflicted on me. And I always do my best to enjoy it.

The reason for this is because I once went insane in the past. It pushed me to make the best from the worst. After that it took me a while to figure things out. The more accepting and tolerant people are the happier they are. Control pain and suffering and you can turn it into pleasure.

Doesn't mean "hurt me all the time". In fact everything is in moderation. It simply means focusing on the intimacy/affection in each and every moment. Physical pain is child's play.

Intolerance, ignorance and doubts on the other hand... well, those things conflict with awareness. Without awareness there is no honesty. Without this there is no control.

If you have doubts then you lack confidence. But if you have doubts then you also assume. And if you have trust issues then those assumptions are definitely irrational more often then not. This is "negative pain". That can harm both you and the people around you. In the none controlled/fun way.

Only with control can you control any harm/damage in a situation. And in this focus on the positives no matter how unpleasent the situation may be.

First it begins with making the best from the worst. But somewhere along the way you learn to bounce back. Once you learn to do that pain gets turned around. Flipped upside down. And suddenly you're marching towards that goal, letting nothing stop you. There is no other alternative. Some people have yet to discover how to do this of course. And this is only the starting point.

Second, learn to seek out the pain. The truth for a start. Hurt people. Go out of your way to do it. Perhaps try some physical ways. But always focusing on the affection. Being there for each other. Not letting any moment causing negativity.

If you can't do it, someone can do it with you. And if I do it to you... well, you can wallow, or you can make the best of it. What else will you be able to handle when you learn to adapt?

They say hesitation is defeat. They're not kidding. Fail to adapt and you won't just suffer. You'll not even know why because you didn't know how. You're going to suffer alright. There's just nothing more thrilling then suffering through getting knocked down 10 times over yet finally knowing how to get the best possible result. The confident people are confident for a reason. They learned the hard way.

Those that have issues even when they're old? They're still learning. Or stopped trying too find out. Even then I recently met someone and am pushing them to improve. They say I make them happy. Conflict is something they avoid. But they always face me. They certainty wouldn't call themselves a masochist. But I don't use the labels. I focus on each and every situation. Being as specific/clear as possible.

Provided it's all about responsibility and honesty it all checks out. Long as at least one of you is observant enough.

FlipSide1481​(dom male) • Feb 19, 2021

Thank you for all the fantastic responses.

For me personally I do not "punish" a submissive masochist to correct them. I "correct" them. I think sexualization, of the whole idea of punishment and being punished is very normal, however we seldom dig deeply into what actual turns us on.

If the submissives sexual kink is punishment (for fun) then negotiating with them that I will punish them for certain things and there ability to do those things determines the amount of punishment/funishment.

I will correct their behaviors that genuinely need to change.

Hope this adds at least a another perspective to the conversation.

Arach • Feb 19, 2021

Ah, tried to comment to you, but you don't take messages from new people. If you want to talk at all, send me a note.

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Feb 20, 2021

FlipSide1481​ I agree. Too often people are talking about "Funishment" which is fine if you both enjoy that. The terms discipline and punishment are often misused in this realm. Which is a shame, since if you need to make everything sexual, then to me, nothing is sexual. It's all just one big never ending lump of distortions. The things that most impressed me when I found this lifestyle were the communication, clarity and structure of it.

While punishment as it is meant here is not usually in my dynamics, the true heart of punishment for me is much deeper. If I have failed him, or really upset him to the point that he feels he needs to punish me, it would be a discussion or the removal of the task. The angst from that that I would impose on myself is always worse than what the Dom would want to do.

Too often we have either people who need their lives managed for them where you see this come up. Or people who want to be forced into good behavior.

I see no point. If you like spankings, tell him. If you need help getting out of your own way, tell him. If you re out of control, go learn how to be in control.

Once in a chat room a woman came in asking for advice. Seems she had a gambling problem and her Dom was helping her with it. So he goes out of town on business and she gambles away the rent money. she asked us if she should tell him and all these people are looking for loopholes.

"Did he specifically say tell him if you break the rules?"
"Will he know if you don't tell him? Can you borrow the money and not tell him?"

She was more worried about release or punishment than she was worried that she was addicted to gambling. In that scenario I blame the Dom. If he wanted to help her he should have insisted she get therapy.

Normally the comedienne in the room, I was real specific. I told her that if she belonged to me she would be released immediately. Period. "But," she sputtered, "I'd have no where to go."

"That," I stressed, "is why you don't gamble away the damn rent money. That is why you as an adult, shouldn't need to be told not to do that."

Punishment is a big deal. Not a game, or fantasy. If you make it that, call it something else which is where funishment came into being. but if you're always getting physically punished, I'd wonder how serious you were about power exchange, and how competent your Dom was keeping you around when you needed so much attention.

Bunnie • Feb 20, 2021

@ Subtle,

This is where you touched upon what I was actually speaking of:

“The angst from that that I would impose on myself is always worse than what the Dom would want to do.”

and answered what I was seeking, also:

“If I have failed him, or really upset him to the point that he feels he needs to punish me, it would be a discussion or the removal of the task.”

so, thank you

Taramafor​(sub male) • Feb 21, 2021

It's best not to generalise and be as clear as possible. I'm of the same mind. Besides, any "corrections" lead to something positive.

Some forms of pain can be attractive because they serve as reminders about why people care. A positive reason/purpose behind it.

Receive and inflict it all and isn't that acceptance? And with acceptance we have love. "The best and the worst". But can't have one without the other.

Even a sadistic monster doing the worst possible things will be disgusted at "giving up". And in turn, suicide. oh sure, they'll destroy you with their own hands and enjoy it, but the worst thing anyone can do is give up. There's just no answers there. No honesty. No straight answers and no stability. It actually violates why that monster exists. They know all too well the importance of control and choice. Though to an outsiders point of view it might seem otherwise. But something pushes people over the edge.

I both accept the pain of others and inflict it myself. This is why I get the results I do. I don't fear the monsters. I fear being the reason they exist. What creates monsters? Not even seeing them.

What do you see? Or rather, what do you refuse to try and see?

LordofPain56 • Feb 21, 2021

Long ago, I wrote out a "covenant" which included the following statement:

"It is prohibited to break the rules just to receive a punishment. It is likely that you will receive attention enough during normal adult playtime to satisfy even the most hardcore of masochists. You do not want to break the rules. You will NOT like the punishment."

So, lemme ask you, can you think of any masochist who would enjoy standing speechless in the corner for hours, or be sent to bed for 3 nights in a row without companionship? Albeit that this alone time would constantly remind her how displeased her Master is with her for breaking the rules. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

Taramafor​(sub male) • Feb 22, 2021

@LordofPain56: Your logic is flawed. For one simple reason.

You do not decide at any point in time what others want or need. Nor do you decide at any point in time what others do. It doesn't matter if you're a dom/owner or not. You do not under any circumstances make the decisions of others.

All it takes is one bad day. Then someone might read/hear "You". In regards to decisions. And then SNAP! I've been through it. I've seen others go through it. It's the "violation of choice" factor. Unintended perhaps. But that's the danger. I advise a change of wording. To ensure zero misunderstanding on the matter. Rules need those more then ever. Implications can cause misunderstandings.

Pain is one thing. Accidentally believing others are trying to decide for us is another. Influence, sure. But if anyone for any reason feels like that's not intact, things tend to go bad. In my experience and observations, it always has. Your choices are always your own. That said I get people to do what I say quite easily. It's because I state "This is the consequence of your choice". Or perhaps "This situation is happening and it's because of your own actions/in inactions". However, I make 100% certain I do not go "you" or "we" in regards to decisions. I will however in regards to observations. Two different things.

What you do with this information is up to you. But I've hurt people myself with the implication alone. Others me as well. This is the danger I sense. This is the full and fair warning I give.

I'm a sadomasochist. But above all else I'm honest and let people know where they stand. Sidenote: I've been seeing that sadomasochists do this more. Makes sense to me.

If a sadomasochist knows both sides and pushes everyone around them does this mean their desire for honesty/truth is why they do what they do? It's the only conclusion I can come too. More you know more full and fair warning you give. We'll laugh if you ignore it too (village idiot). Yet smile if precautions are taken. I'm finding this piece of information I am just realising very insightful. No wonder they enjoy everything.

Hmm... Wonder if that provides any insight in regards to masochists that accept any punishment?

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Feb 22, 2021

LordofPain56 "So, lemme ask you, can you think of any masochist who would enjoy standing speechless in the corner for hours, or be sent to bed for 3 nights in a row without companionship? Albeit that this alone time would constantly remind her how displeased her Master is with her for breaking the rules. That doesn't sound like fun to me."

A few thoughts:

Anyone not serious about obedience might see this as an invite that you expect disobedience. (Or are secretly hoping to find it.) Which can also be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They say start the way you mean to end, so expecting to deal with disobedience and having to punish might well become the thread through your dynamic that eventually causes it to end.

And really, do you need to say "don't break the rules"? These are supposed to be mutually agreed upon dynamics. Both are supposed to want to be there and working together, each on their side of the slash, to create a good relationship.

People who test to the point of punishment usually aren't getting what they need.
People who need help improving aren't usually looking for punishment. They are looking for guidance.

Doms who jump to punishment and threaten that I won't like it always make me think that they have a limited idea of power exchange and are overcompensating. That is not to say it doesn't work for you. If it does, cool beans.