Is Chivalry Dead?

Mister K Ren​(dom male) • Apr 1, 2021

In my experience, women have very different feelings about chivalry. Some women seem to appreciate it, others find it overbearing. For gents, I think the best approach is to be sensitive to the individual needs of people around you, rather than having a "chivalry rule" that you apply in every single setting. Of course, there's no way to know how your behavior will impact strangers, so that makes it more complicated, admittedly.

MrFulmen • Apr 1, 2021

I love this explanation from a delightfully foul-mouthed classicist.

https://bettermyths.com/chivalry-isnt-dead-you-just-dont-know-what-the-fuck-it-is/

Knightsundere​(sub male) • Apr 1, 2021

Fulmen's link is good, lol.

In my opinion there's a human ratio for dickheads/jerks and that ratio hasn't shifted at any point in history, though it does mean you'll meet a lot more in areas with more people.

Taramafor​(sub male) • Apr 1, 2021

Here's a thought.

Some people have concerns about being "cruel".

Then they play the deaf ears and turned backs card after they see only the worst of you (inaccurately). Which just contradicts everything someone went on about.

In my experience it's the "too nice" people that are the "meanest". Because they're so... fragile. Which leads to fuelling their fear.

On the other hand a blunt direct person that is rough around the edges can do a lot of nice things for you. But you might assume otherwise when you judge a book by its cover.

There's another factor I think is being overlooked here. An extremely important one. That no one has ever mentioned. So I will. Loyalty. Someone that wants to treat you right. Not out of blind obligation. Not out of expectation. But because they just want to make you happy.

I'll do things for a stranger if they show they're keeping me in mind. But I'm not doing something for no reason either. Too many people contradict their statements. What's your reason to do something beyond "Expectation"?

Often simply keeping each other in mind is enough. But when it's the "nice" ones that refuse to consider anything then their own viewpoint alone it makes that hard. It's actually a known fact that people that give it to you straight are more honest with you. Even if they won't hold a door open. But they WILL do more then that when it matters and counts. If you treat them right.

What I think is being overlooked here is why people do "more" then what's expected. even if at the same time they might not do what you want. But they could do what you need. Which is more important. And then they might do what you want anyway. But what's someones reason to do things for you?

That reason better damn well be better then "Because I exist and am entitled".

Miki • Apr 1, 2021

Chivalry may not be dead, but considering the times during which it originated, it is certainly obsolete. From days when women were dainty maidens perceived as too "fair" to open their own doors, etc.

Personally I do not like and will not allow doors to be held open for me. I'll stand there, defer politely at first, and if the guy insists, I rather firmly remind him that I am not his grandmother and to move his ass. I got places to be. If the guy still insists, I walk away and come back after he gives up.

No, don't let the door close in my face.. Open it, go in first, and then just hand the fucking thing off to me.

Chivalry started going obsolete long before the so-called "information age"--- Think '60s and '70s. Feminism. Billie-Jean King on the tennis court; Helen Reddy on the radio; "I am Woman: Hear Me Roar" among other period pieces.

I'm not a feminist but I really can open my own doors, get into a car unassisted, I can even scratch my own ass. (Now ain't that sexy...)

If I make it into my 90s or later, or have a debilitating stroke, then it'll will be a different story.


*********

EDIT: I am speaking strictly of holding doors and shit for random women. If you're on a date and want to be a prince, knock your socks off.

But in general, and speaking for myself, I never let an unknown dude walk behind me as would happen if I let him hold the door open for me. Though I have never have been assaulted, the potential exists and, as they say, "an ounce of prevention...."

I want them where I can see them.

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Apr 1, 2021

I only date men who like and respect women. Anything we do together that might seem disrespectful to the casual observer is not. It is more than likely a behavior we have discussed at length and agree on as part of our dynamic. Then again I am not that far out there with what I like.

Having been involved with three such men and collared by two of them I can tell you it raises the bar exponentially.

However, it isn't for everyone. So if you wish to be treated that way, expect to say no a lot. I tend to take great care of the Dominant I am involved with. It is important to me and I like and respect men in general so it isn't hard to do. As with all preferences, it's going to cut down the list of potentials. So as they say, be true to yourself. Accept no substitutions or fakes who act nice to get you and then let you see the real guy.

Then if they have been profoundly unkind or disrespectful and say they didn't mean it, it was just a heat of the moment thing? Don't believe it. If it isn't in your head it can't come out of your mouth. Respectful and chivalrous men don't have that junk in their heads, to begin with.

So no Chivalry isn't dead. But it is a higher level so if you only look too close to the basics you might miss it.

Kelpi • Apr 1, 2021

Chivalry is not dead but dying. It was once taught or handed down from man to boy because as men that was our job to tech the next generation. But now? Who knows? In my youth I could see it start to die and as I got older more so. Not so much because it was not handed down but there was no reason for it. Women wanted to open their own doors and wanted men to know they where only needed when called on. or as one woman I know put it "why do I need a man when I have rechargeable batteries"?
Well you don't really but some still need us to be there in the night to cuddle and snuggle. Yes the days of slapping a man around because he insulted her is over. You either go to jail or sued. There are only a few who are worth fighting for and only a hand full worth risking everything. Gone are the times fighting for a lady was not only a right but an honor. In another generation maybe two it will be dead and with the third forgotten. Just something from old movies no one watches.

TheWhorelock​(dom male) • Apr 2, 2021

Chivalry, and assumed rules of behavior around gender, are dying because there’s no standard of expectation from women. As demonstrated in this thread, people have all kinds of feelings about these kinds of behaviors, and the truth is such things die off without universal support. I am a person who is polite and considerate, but I stopped doing most traditionally chivalrous things as I’ve been criticized, judged, feared, and even publicly shamed for doing things like offering to pay the bill for dinner or holding the door open for a woman. No, I’m not exaggerating. It’s irrelevant that I hold the door open for everyone out of habit.

It’s also a fair assessment of our culture that chivalry has far more often been used as a method of beginning a power-over relationship than as a method of respecting women, or as a social structure to ingratiate oneself to a woman pseudo consensually, usually as a predecessor to predatory behavior or harassment.

SubtleHush​(sub female) • Apr 2, 2021

So probably the best way to answer a question like this is to consider Age, experience, and personal culture. I'm not talking about culture in a typical sense. I mean culture in who you hang out with and who you socialize with. (Back when we could do that)

Simply put, what we value doesn't dye. We work to keep it. We work to find it. We care about it. Those can be core values. Up to you to spend time with those who have none.

Those in my age group and experience within the lifestyler value chivalry. So it isn't going anywhere. Others will value it differently or even allow it to fade and die.

That is not to say that it looks the same as it did 50 years ago.

But I see some comments here that are concerning.

One person said some women don't want you to hold a door for them. That can be arrogance, indifference, or something else. There are times when someone is so disempowered, or fearful of the world that if they can open a door for themselves, that is a big leap. Do not discount how brutal life has been for some people. Do not discount how unsure or weakened their circumstances have made them. Every small step is a big deal. You can not know that about a stranger of course, but you don't have to assume you're looking at a stuck-up B***ch either. So when in doubt and you step back and let her do it? THEN that is you being chivalrous. Or if you prefer, kind.

Someone said something about women slapping men and another said women don't need men because they have vibrators.

It's a shame when your poor choices in people who are clearly rude, nasty, and just unacceptably violent casts such a wide net over a concept that validates the absolute opposite of that.

Call it what you want but shutting those people down and focusing on just liking the opposite sex and treating people properly takes a lot of that BS away.
And those who engage in it don't deserve your time or attention. And that is about choice, not chivalry.
Chivalry is not the same but the choice to not be a jerk has never changed. So stop interacting or dating them huh?

There are always people who will take the most simple or unassuming concept and bastardize it. It's what they do.
And they're everywhere.

Holidays? Oh, they have something to say.
You're poly? You're monogamous? Whoops, watch out.
You getting married? You staying single? My God here they come.
It isn't so much about the topic really.
It's about that old adage misery really does love company.
And misery is always hungry.

H*

L a r s​(dom male) • Apr 2, 2021

In the west, where chivalry originated, we are in a massive, almost unbelievable cultural shift.
Compare the standards of today with the standards of the 50's. The prevailing philosophies.

America in particular is practically a foreign culture to some of its older citizens. This shift is not something set in stone, either. Some areas of the nation have barely changed from 100 years ago, while some seem to shift every week.

It's not necessarily a question of whether or not chivalry is dead. It's a question of whether or not it CAN operate in such a dynamic culture.

In time, things will settle, and stanfards will emerge. Personally? I am an old fashioned fella. Always gonna treat ladies a bit (or a lot) more carefully than I do with dudes. Many have appreciated that. Many have not, haha. Ah well.